# Walz & Vance Debate Follow-Along -- Tue, Oct 1, 2024, 8:00 PM CDT **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 30, 2024, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284 "2024-09-30T14:05:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/501 "2024-10-03T02:06:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > That said my default is that the burden of proof to justify a pre emptive strike would need to be very high. Innocents are certain to die. The risk of mistakes that spiral is high. My hope is that the parties can step away from this brink . . . If Walz had said this, it would have been a rejection of Biden-Harris administration policy. Jake Sullivan said this six hours before the debate: [Press Briefing](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2024/10/01/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-karine-jean-pierre-national-security-advisor-jake-sullivan-and-secretary-of-homeland-security-alejandro-mayorkas/) > [@](#): > > What I can tell you is this: We are proud of the actions that we’ve taken alongside Israel to protect and defend Israel. We have made clear that there will be consequences — severe consequences — for this attack, and we will work with Israel to make that the case. You might say that “severe consequences” against Iran do not necessarily have to be violent. But considering [the context of U.S. bombing. raids, in Syria, over the past three weeks](https://apnews.com/article/syria-militants-killed-airstrike-us-central-command-8921f045b25d621143778730d78bd4e4), I think that Walz going in the suggested direction would legitimately open discussion of whether he is on the same team as Harris. The question was: > [@](#): > > Governor Walz, if you are the final voice in the situation room, would you support or oppose a preemptive strike by Israel on Iran? That was a good, if hard, question. The administration policy here is that it would not be a preemptive attack, and that it supports Israeli action if more or less proportionate. Looking at the transcript, Walz essentially said that: [And as the Vice President said today, is we will protect our forces and our allied forces, and there will be consequences.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/full-vp-debate-transcript-walz-vance-2024/) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/502 "2024-10-03T02:14:38Z")
I heard a more hypothetical future than what should happen now. Because indeed that question makes no sense as right now. There is nothing preemptive about a response to an attack. _Preemptive_ is in advance of a known or highly suspected major attack to occur in the near future. Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of the question. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/503 "2024-10-03T02:26:56Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > That’s a perfect ad. Fair and hard hitting. I believe that was also Walz’s best and hardest hitting response all night. > [@Spoons](#): > > The Israel/Iran question was not a good one to start with. Both candidates would be a little bit nervous at the start, and to jump right into a sticky question dealing with foreign policy—well, I’m not surprised that both of them botched it. Agreed. I thought it was a bullshit way to start the debate. I also thought the out of nowhere question about Tiananmen Square to Walz was 100% bullshit. Where the fuck did that come from? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/504 "2024-10-03T04:58:53Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > C’mon, people! You’re acting like he totally blew it, and he did not. > > Yeah, Vance was glib, **but he lied**. Let’s deduct points for that. Its like those competition debates where the topic is something like “Resolved: Fascism is the best form of government” and then the two teams draw straws to determine whether they are pro or anti. Vance was the better debater but was handicapped by drawing the short straw and having the more difficult task of defending the indefensible. ---
**Author:** ![Jihi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jihi/32/17768_2.png) [@Jihi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jihi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/505 "2024-10-03T07:49:03Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > OK, but Walz isn’t a novice at all. He’s the governor of Minnesota. There must have been countless occasions when he had to speak on TV and/or in front of big crowds, press conferences, answering questions with little or no prep beforehand. My answer to this, is that it’s not necessarily measuring Walz against his past performances or other general expectations. The point is more that I think a lot of posters here are measuring his performance against what we read here every single day. That creates an unrealistic expectation. Walz had 2 minutes to answer each question generally speaking. I would ask any poster here curious to consider how long it takes them to compose an intelligent post on a complex subject. And keep in mind you would be posting after having read recent posts and have already been thinking on the subject. Walz had an idea of general topics to be discussed, but no idea of what question would be coming next. Jumping mental train tracks isn’t always easy. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/506 "2024-10-03T11:33:37Z")
> [@Jihi](#): > > I would ask any poster here curious to consider how long it takes them to compose an intelligent post on a complex subject. While being constrained by the truth. It’s like when you watch Jeopardy and people miss questions, and you sit in your living room and think, _"Hell I could have gotten that one!_ ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/507 "2024-10-03T13:03:10Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > What if you wanted to say that Vance sounded reasonable but what he said was extreme? > > This is exactly the point. The problem is the superficiality with which voters make judgments. My point was that the questions they asked gave no way to say that. Maybe the voters were making superficial judgements; maybe they weren’t; but the question allowed no way to distinguish between sounding reasonable superficially (which he did) and saying entirely unreasonable things (which he also did.) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/508 "2024-10-03T14:52:57Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > That’s a perfect ad. Fair and hard hitting. Agree. When my gf saw the ad she was impressed (she’s in advertising). She described to me what the people involved in production went through and how they worked feverishly through the night to come up with it. And yet it is polished and perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/509 "2024-10-03T15:23:45Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Yeah, Vance was glib, **but he lied**. Let’s deduct points for that. Sadly, the electorate on the whole considers this to be a feature, not a bug. They enjoy the lies. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/510 "2024-10-03T16:37:17Z")
The point, of course, is not that Vance sounded reasonable and measured. Words mean things. The words Vance used were at odds with his own stated positions. How do you give women options by restricting them? How do you earn their trust by repealing their protections? Even when Vance was not being misleading or intellectually dishonest, his statements lacked coherence with moderate examination. You can apply revisionist history to modify Trump’s record on Obamacare, women’s rights and foreign policy. But it doesn’t change what happened. Trump would focus a second term on personal slights and Project 2025 goals (agenda 47). He would solve fewer problems then the first time round. [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/02/upshot/trump-vance-obamacare-debate.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/02/upshot/trump-vance-obamacare-debate.html) [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/02/us/politics/vance-obamacare-trump-aca.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/02/us/politics/vance-obamacare-trump-aca.html) [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/02/us/politics/vance-walz-debate-analysis.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/02/us/politics/vance-walz-debate-analysis.html) [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/02/us/politics/abortion-election-2024.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/02/us/politics/abortion-election-2024.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/511 "2024-10-03T17:09:48Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Doesn’t matter that multiple polls say the debate was a draw, Fox News _knows_ that Vance swept to an overwhelming victory. > > The have _seven_ separate stories on the Fox News website confirming it, one citing a “body language expert”. Well, of course that’s typical Fox: lie to the viewers! But Vance DID win by gaining so many ‘favorability’ points. Walz won some, too. But he failed to make the case that Vance is weird and extremist. The debate left too many ‘undecided’ voters with the impression that the USA will be fine if Trump and Vance get in. That’s a problem. I’m not blaming Walz. It’s his nature to try to make the person he’s with comfortable, and to try to find consensus. In most aspects of life that’s an unqualified positive. In the case of the debate and its possible effect on the election: not so much. > [@Horatius](#): > > In a campaign characterized by almost no movement in the polls for months at a time, both of them got huge bumps. This is particularly important for Vance, who was particularly disliked prior to the debate, and who is running with Trump. A big bump for Vance might mean some unlikely voters will use him as an excuse to vote for Trump, and it won’t take many of them to make a difference. Yeah, all of that is far too true. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/512 "2024-10-03T18:34:30Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Here is the ad Anybody got a link that’s not xitter? ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/513 "2024-10-03T19:36:34Z")
Yeah, sorry about that. Try [this one](https://youtu.be/Ax0KIhHFnaE). ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/514 "2024-10-03T20:00:54Z")
_“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a **worthy cause** ; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”_ The bold part is where Walz won the debate, and frankly where Biden won his debate. MAGA may understand “freedom” as the ability to make a comfortable living without government interference (such as the regulations against predatory lending that dunned Ashli Babbit’s pool supply company for 169%). An avatar of personal success may be found in Donald Trump, since he’s no worse than many of the rest of his class. It’s a debate that’s been ongoing, at least since Jefferson envisioned a nation of yeoman smallholders, and the Jackson evicted the Indians out of all the good bottom land for the slaveholders while the rest of the whites could scratch at the hills. And Jackson’s portrait hung in Trump’s Oval Office. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/515 "2024-10-03T20:54:03Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Walz (on visiting China): _I’ve not been perfect, and I’m a knucklehead at times … I got there that summer and misspoke on this._ > …Ding! Ok, you could have been smoother, better on that one, but WTF cares - this has nothing to do with current political positions and what your administration would do if in power. I agree that this China thing has nothing to do with anything. But The Atlantic felt it was important enough to devote an article to it. 🤨 Where’s the article highlighting all of Vance’s lies, hmmm? > **[You’re Killing Me, Walz](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/10/tim-walz-debate-flub/680124/?gift=QgO_LHw-skz7EqtMG0lcxs19jqomWvf932K7M5jIEDI&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)** > > If Minnesota’s governor is on the Democratic ticket for his retail politics, why is he flubbing basic questions about prior misstatements? Says it’s a gift link, but who knows. ---
**Author:** ![Jihi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jihi/32/17768_2.png) [@Jihi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jihi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/516 "2024-10-03T21:22:27Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Where’s the article highlighting all of Vance’s lies, hmmm? They went for the low hanging fruit. A democrat misspeaking is news. A republican lying to the nation for 2 hours straight is normal now. The only thing newsworthy about Vance is that he did so eloquently. I can _almost_ take some solace in that fact. Instead I think I’ll just… 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/517 "2024-10-03T21:26:36Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Yeah, sorry about that. Try [this one Thanks, that worked very nicely. And gave me a followup of Tim Minchin doing Play It Safe, for a nice bonus. (Admittedly, that may be because I’d watched that recently.) ETA: local paper (mostly local news) ran a short article about the debate. Said, more or less, that they actually debated each other, and that it was a nice change. Listed some of the things they disagreed on. Did not mention lies. Did not mention January 6. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/518 "2024-10-03T21:41:18Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > I also thought the out of nowhere question about Tiananmen Square to Walz was 100% bullshit. Where the fuck did that come from? It wasn’t out of nowhere. It was the headline on multiple sites the day of the debate. It wasn’t too hard to figure out it might come up as a character issue. It’s not like it was a secret the moderator uncovered and had in their back pocket. They just had to look at the internet. It might not matter to you but it wasn’t out of left field. I got alerts on my phone about the story hours before the debate. It should have been an answer that was prepped since it was a fresh story. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/519 "2024-10-03T22:26:09Z")
And who cares that Hope Walz was conceived via IUI and not IVF? ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284/520 "2024-10-03T22:50:31Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > It wasn’t out of nowhere. It was the headline on multiple sites the day of the debate. It wasn’t too hard to figure out it might come up as a character issue. It’s not like it was a secret the moderator uncovered and had in their back pocket. They just had to look at the internet. It might not matter to you but it wasn’t out of left field. I got alerts on my phone about the story hours before the debate. It should have been an answer that was prepped since it was a fresh story. I totally missed them. There are now a gazillion articles, post debate, but it wasn’t something I saw that day. Of course, I don’t do a lot of news browsing during the day. It was nothing I had heard of so it was out of nowhere for me. With that said, if they wanted to talk about character, why didn’t they ask Vance about his people eating dogs and cats story? A story he has admitted making up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/walz-vance-debate-follow-along-tue-oct-1-2024-8-00-pm-cdt/1008284.md?page=27)