# Wankel Engine
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [April 15, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393 "2008-04-15T03:27:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/1 "2008-04-15T03:27:12Z")
What ever became of the Wankel. It was certainly different . It was supposed to be the defeater of the Internal combustion engine. Has it been improved in the last few years. Does it have any promise.?
Are there any other engines on the horizon that can compete with the I.C.E.?
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/2 "2008-04-15T03:47:49Z")
The Wankel engine IS an [internal combustion engine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine). The difference between it and a standard auto engine is that the Wankel has rotary chambers and rotors instead of pistons and cylinders.
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### Author:  [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/3 "2008-04-15T03:48:29Z")
Since the Wankel _is_ an internal combustion engine, it’s hard to see how it could defeat them.
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### Author:  [@Khampelf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khampelf)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/4 "2008-04-15T03:53:28Z")
Has it been mentioned that the wankel _ **is** _ an internal combustion engine, just one whose internal combustion turns rotors, instead of pushing pistons?
It should be. Mentioned, that is.
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/5 "2008-04-15T03:54:27Z")
It’s “Rio” by Duran Duran.
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### Author:  [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/6 "2008-04-15T03:56:58Z")
I had a Wankel once. Back in the 60’s.
For seconds. 20 or so I believe.
Then I had pie.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/7 "2008-04-15T03:57:04Z")
As **jayjay** said, it is an internal combustion engine. Non-internal combustion engines would be things like a steam engine where you have an external heat source causing movement in a second chamber.
As for the wankel engine’s promise, at the moment the only car company putting any R&D into it is Mazda, and only for the RX series of cars. And while they’ve been able to keep it competitive with other cars in the same price range, and while the max RPM efficiency is really high compared to a piston engine, ultimately it’s just a different flavor of the same thing. Outside of the coolness factor of having a rotary engine, you’re still getting roughly the same horse power, gas mileage, emissions, etc.
Perhaps Mazda will come up with a motor that makes them able to make a car that can win all the various world races, but until that point there’s no reason for other people to want one too.
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/8 "2008-04-15T03:58:09Z")
Ok .It is not a standard ICE. It is quite different than what powers American Cars.
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### Author:  [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/9 "2008-04-15T04:01:04Z")
The Wankel reportedly had problems with a critical component, the seal where the rotor meets the housing. Certainly its rotary motion would be smoother than a reciprocating piston engine, and the Mazda RX7 was one hell of a performing car. Why the engine hasn’t made a bigger splash, I don’t know.
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### Author:  [@Booker57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Booker57)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/10 "2008-04-15T04:08:39Z")
Not the cleanest or most fuel effecent engine.
Any way to get spell-check on this board?
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### Author:  [@J\_Cubed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J_Cubed)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/11 "2008-04-15T05:35:26Z")
It really sucks if you flood a Wankel.
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### Author:  [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/12 "2008-04-15T05:55:27Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Ok .It is not a standard ICE. It is quite different than what powers American Cars.
[/QUOTE]
The rotary or Wankel engine is, by definition, an internal combustion engine, insofar as combustion of fuel product is conducted within the internal combustion chamber, and it is the products of such combustion that perform work directly upon the articulating mechanism. It is not an [Otto cycle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_cycle) or [Diesel cycle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_cycle) (or the less common [Miller cycle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_cycle) or [Atkinson cycle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle)) reciprocating piston engines.
As **Musicat** and **Booker57** note, the engine is not particularly clean nor are the seals (which stick out at ninety degrees to the axis of rotation, bearing a great deal of force) especially robust, typically requiring a rebuild at 60k-80k miles. Engines utilizing this cycle do typically have a high specific output, especially when turbocharged, but that has not proven a great benefit in comparison to more traditional piston engines. Aside from Mazda, which has used this configuration in a few different models (only the RX-7/RX-8 and a light truck imported to North America), only a handful of low production European cars ever used the rotary/Wankel engine, mostly for the reasons above. The characteristics of the rotary are more amenible to a hydrogen-fuel engine should the other issues be resolved, and so it is possible that it may see a resurgence. The rotary motin of a Wankel-type engine is also well suited to very small micromachine engines (given that it has essentially one moving part–the rotor) and so may see future service in MEMS work-producing devices, but for petrochemical car engines it just hasn’t matched up.
Stranger
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### Author:  [@kferr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kferr)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/13 "2008-04-15T10:34:11Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat]
Perhaps Mazda will come up with a motor that makes them able to make a car that can win all the various world races, but until that point there’s no reason for other people to want one too.
[/QUOTE]
They already did, winning Le Mans in 1991.
> **[Mazda 787B](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_787B)**
>
> The Mazda 787 and its derivative 787B are Group C sports prototype racing cars that were developed by Japanese automobile manufacturer Mazda for use in the World Sportscar Championship, All Japan Sports Prototype Championship, and the 24 Hours of Le Mans from 1990 to 1991. Designed to combine a mixture of the Fédération Internationale du Sport Automobile (FISA) Group C regulations with the International Motor Sports Association (IMSA) GTP regulations, the 787s were the last Wankel rotary-powered ...
They’re back at Le Mans this year, but with a regular straight 4
> **[kruse-schiller-motorsport.com](http://www.kruse-schiller-motorsport.com/)**
>
> This domain may be for sale!
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/14 "2008-04-15T10:38:15Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak]
Since the Wankel _is_ an internal combustion engine, it’s hard to see how it could defeat them.
[/QUOTE]
Clearly by infiltration and sabotage.
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### Author:  [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/15 "2008-04-15T10:44:41Z")
A guy I work with had an RX-8. He traded it back for a Miata when the RX-8 started consuming oil. IIRC the oil is $8/qt.
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/16 "2008-04-15T11:17:23Z")
I’ve driven a Wankel (RX-8). That’s one very very very fast engine, especially for the quoted capacity, which is only 1.3L, producing 237 bhp! Eats gas and oil like it was going out of fashion, though.
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### Author:  [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/17 "2008-04-15T11:22:52Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train]
Aside from Mazda, which has used this configuration in a few different models (only the RX-7/RX-8 and a light truck imported to North America
[/QUOTE]
The [RX-3](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_RX-3) was also sold also sold in the U.S. and it had the rotary engine. My father had an RX-3 station wagon for a parts chaser at his wrecking yard. It was fun to drive and to watch guys in so called performance cars get their doors blown off by an ugly green Japanese station wagon was a thing of beauty.
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### Author:  [@essell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/essell)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/18 "2008-04-15T11:23:15Z")
[QUOTE=Booker57]
Not the cleanest or most fuel effecent engine.
[/QUOTE]
I read in the past that Petrol prices started to rise at the time the Wankel was trying to make a splash, colouring perceptions ever since.
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### Author:  [@Myglaren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myglaren)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/19 "2008-04-15T12:29:15Z")
[QUOTE=essell]
I read in the past that Petrol prices started to rise at the time the Wankel was trying to make a splash, colouring perceptions ever since.
[/QUOTE]
That seems to be the accepted theory.
I remember a guy having an NSU RO80 in 1976. Had the charisma of a space shuttle.
Citroen used it in their GS BiRotor but fuel costs and manufacturing problems killed it.
They also had a helicopter with a Wankel engine.
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### Author:  [@flex727](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flex727)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wankel-engine/445393/20 "2008-04-15T13:54:25Z")
[QUOTE=racer72]
The [RX-3](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_RX-3) was also sold also sold in the U.S. and it had the rotary engine. My father had an RX-3 station wagon for a parts chaser at his wrecking yard. It was fun to drive and to watch guys in so called performance cars get their doors blown off by an ugly green Japanese station wagon was a thing of beauty.
[/QUOTE]
They also sold an RX-4, a larger sedan than the RX-3. I owned an RX-3 for several years in the mid-70s and loved it. It was very fast, especially if you wind it out (red line was 8000RPM IIRC). The mileage was not great for a small car, but okay for a sports car (which it really wasn’t). Saw another comment above about oil being $8 a quart. Not sure what that poster was saying, but the Mazda rotary engine cars run on regular oil, though it was designed to burn a small amount to help keep the seals lubricated. You had to add a quart every 3000-4000 miles. The car felt and sounded like it had a turbine engine and was very smooth. I wish I still had it.
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