# Wanna play Botticelli? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 13, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759 "2007-03-13T16:18:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/141 "2007-03-13T21:30:28Z")
Edwin Moses won 107 consecutive hurdles finals. DQ, Were you active in the last half of the 20th Century? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/142 "2007-03-13T21:33:33Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Were you active in the last half of the 20th Century? [/QUOTE] Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/143 "2007-03-13T21:39:13Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.] It would be easy _now_ for me to say ‘Np, I’m not Edward Morley’, but I didn’t have another person in mind so I guess that would have to be ‘No, and I don’t know who you mean.’ [/QUOTE] To try to clear these options up, here’s what the Wiki article says on IQ’s: > [@](#): > > Indirect Mode > > In indirect mode, the guessers take turns (either in sequence or informally) to think of someone with the designated initial letter. These guesser choices do not have to conform to any other information so far acquired about the chooser’s identity (e.g. male, non-fiction, still alive). > > Each guesser asks the chooser a yes/no question using some detail of the guesser’s choice. For example, if the letter is B then the guesser might choose Yul Brynner and ask, “Are you bald?” At this point, the chooser has three possible responses: > > “No, I am not Frank Black.” — The chooser has either guessed the guesser’s chosen person, or has thought of another person who fits the same criteria. (Even if the guesser was thinking of the chooser’s chosen person, a correct “No I am not” that names a different person is allowed, if it fits the questioned criteria.) The game remains in indirect mode, and moves to the next guesser. > “No, and I don’t know who you’re thinking of.” — The chooser can’t think of someone meeting the criteria. The guesser reveals their answer, and the game changes to direct mode. (If guesser was thinking of the chooser’s person, then the guesser wins.) > “Yes, I am Yul Brynner.” — The chooser’s identity meets the criterion of the guesser’s question, and the chooser cannot think of anyone else who satisfies it. The guesser wins. > Guessers can use indirect mode to guess the chooser’s identity directly (e.g. “Are you Yul Brynner?”) > The bar for guesser choices is lower than that for the chooser’s identity; it is not essential for the chooser to have heard of the person, or to know the relevant biographical detail, but guessers should not deliberately exploit this provision. The ideal guesser question is one where the chooser says “Doh! I should have gotten that.” when the answer is revealed. The critical issue is Item 2 which reads, \*\*“No, and I don’t know who you’re thinking of.” — The chooser can’t think of someone meeting the criteria. The guesser reveals their answer, and the game changes to direct mode. (If guesser was thinking of the chooser’s person, then the guesser wins.) \*\*" As I read this, in order to win, the Guesser must name the Chooser’s person after the Chooser says, “I don’t know who you mean.” Please tell me this is clear! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/144 "2007-03-13T21:52:26Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar] Please tell me this is clear! :dubious: [/QUOTE] So he gets a DQ since I didn’t know who he was thinking of at the time. ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/145 "2007-03-13T22:03:29Z")
So by the cited section are fictional people allowed? And forgive me my muddied exchange with DQ preceding IQ. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/146 "2007-03-13T22:07:17Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.] So he gets a DQ since I didn’t know who he was thinking of at the time. [/QUOTE] After another rereading of the rules in my latest post, the issue boils down to this: Since **Sternvogel** ’s question was Indirect, your answer, instead of “Yes,” should have been “No – I don’t know who you mean” at which point he would have had to say who he meant. And, if he had your person, he would win. But since you said “Yes” and not “Yes – I’m \” (which would indicate that his IQ described your person and you couldn’t think of somebody else to match his question) I think we need to give **Sternvogel** a DQ and hope this doesn’t come up again. That suit you? In the future, if you would have to answer “yes” to an Indirect Question, but aren’t sure the Guesser has your person in mind, it’s best to force the Guesser to name the person by way of “No – I don’t know who you mean.” That leaves it up to the Guesser. Goddamn! This is some fuzzy logic! ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/147 "2007-03-13T22:12:55Z")
[QUOTE=MonkeyMensch] So by the cited section are fictional people allowed? And forgive me my muddied exchange with DQ preceding IQ. [/QUOTE] Maybe in a new thread where we agree up front to allow non-real people. But let’s keep this one to real people – Felix the Cat aside – for IQ’s as well as the Chooser’s Identity. I’d like to get that new thread going as soon as we get Johnny’s person. Y’all up for that? How about whoever guesses Johnny’s starts the new thread and sets whatever rules need to be used? ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/148 "2007-03-13T22:15:57Z")
Yo! **Johnny L.A.** , could you summarize the Direct Questions that have been asked and answered for us? I’m getting lost as to which is which. Duh! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/149 "2007-03-13T22:25:26Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar] Yo! **Johnny L.A.** , could you summarize the Direct Questions that have been asked and answered for us? I’m getting lost as to which is which. Duh! [/QUOTE] EM is: [ul][li]Male.[/li][li]Not in acting[/li][li]Dead[/li][li]Not an artist[/li][li]Not in sports[/li][li]Was involved in scientific experiments[/li][li]Was in aviation[/li][li]Was an American citizen[/li][li]Experiments for which he’s known were not in space[/li][li]Did his ‘most famous’ work while a member of the Armed Forces[/li][\*]Was active in the last half of the 20th Century[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/150 "2007-03-13T22:34:46Z")
EM Has he walked on the moon? ETA: Never mind - I see that it’s not Edgar Mitchell. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/151 "2007-03-13T22:40:48Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar] After another rereading of the rules in my latest post, the issue boils down to this: Since **Sternvogel** ’s question was Indirect, your answer, instead of “Yes,” should have been “No – I don’t know who you mean” at which point he would have had to say who he meant. And, if he had your person, he would win. But since you said “Yes” and not “Yes – I’m \” (which would indicate that his IQ described your person and you couldn’t think of somebody else to match his question) I think we need to give **Sternvogel** a DQ and hope this doesn’t come up again. That suit you? In the future, if you would have to answer “yes” to an Indirect Question, but aren’t sure the Guesser has your person in mind, it’s best to force the Guesser to name the person by way of “No – I don’t know who you mean.” That leaves it up to the Guesser. Goddamn! This is some fuzzy logic! [/QUOTE] I think you’re slightly off. I beleive that the rules say you can only say no if either 1). no is honest or 2). you can think of someone else who meets the criteria. So you have to say yes if your person meets the criteria, but you can’t think of any one else who meets the criteria. Say I pick Neil Armstrong. if someone asks me if I’m an astronaut, I either have to come up with a NA astronaut, or say yes, it’s Neil Armstrong. However if someone asks me are you an actor? I can either say no, I’m not [actor with name starting with NA], or say no, I can’t think of anyone, you get a direct question. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/152 "2007-03-13T22:41:16Z")
Just so y’all can know, I’m logging off for the day. It may be tomorrow before I’m back here, so y’all work out any additional issues as best you can by way of the Wiki rules. If Johnny’s person gets identified, please start a new thread for any more action in Botticelli. That has been great fun! Thanks for playing. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/153 "2007-03-13T22:48:43Z")
[QUOTE=Taber] I think you’re slightly off. I beleive that the rules say you can only say no if either 1). no is honest or 2). you can think of someone else who meets the criteria. So you have to say yes if your person meets the criteria, but you can’t think of any one else who meets the criteria. Say I pick Neil Armstrong. if someone asks me if I’m an astronaut, I either have to come up with a NA astronaut, or say yes, it’s Neil Armstrong. However if someone asks me are you an actor? I can either say no, I’m not [actor with name starting with NA], or say no, I can’t think of anyone, you get a direct question. [/QUOTE] I agree with your overall assessment, and the only real issue for me in my answer(s) had to do with whether **Sternvogel** ’s question was an IQ or a DQ, and after the fact, felt Johnny’s “yes” was ill-chosen. Next time it comes up, your version is how we should treat it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/154 "2007-03-13T22:55:38Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar] Just so y’all can know, I’m logging off for the day. It may be tomorrow before I’m back here, so y’all work out any additional issues as best you can by way of the Wiki rules. If Johnny’s person gets identified, please start a new thread for any more action in Botticelli. That has been great fun! Thanks for playing. [/QUOTE] If everyone gives up, I can give the answer and someone else can start a new game mañana. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/155 "2007-03-13T23:32:52Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.] If everyone gives up, I can give the answer and someone else can start a new game mañana. [/QUOTE] I’m not everyone, but I am as important as everyone, and I give up. Make that more important. Than. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/156 "2007-03-14T00:12:16Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] I’m not everyone, but I am as important as everyone, and I give up. Make that more important. Than. [/QUOTE] Okay. [Edward Aloysius Murphy, Jr.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Edward_A._Murphy,_Jr.) (January 11, 1918 - July 17th, 1990). Murphy was an Air Force engineer who was involved in high speed rocket sled tests conducted by John Paul Stapp. Stapp was an early supporter of [seat belts in cars](http://www.stapp.org/stapp.shtml). Murphy’s claim to fame is being the namesake of [Murphy’s Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy%27s_Law). ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/157 "2007-03-14T01:13:27Z")
Have you ever reported from Vienna in 1938, where Herr Hitler has not yet arrived? ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/158 "2007-03-14T01:16:57Z")
Crap, somehow I skipped reading a page. Disregard my Murrow query, ha. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/159 "2007-03-14T04:35:06Z")
So, **Johnny L.A.** has to start the new thread? FWIW, I met John paul Stapp, during “Space Camp” in Alamogordo, NM in 1992. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759/160 "2007-03-14T04:51:32Z")
A day late and a dollar short… \*Originally Posted by **Elendil’s Heir** Are you (EM) a noted American historian and biographer? No, and I don’t know who you mean.\* Edmund Morgan, FWIW. On to the next thread, I guess… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wanna-play-botticelli/395759.md?page=9)