# Want epic fantasy, but... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 9, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247 "2005-11-09T18:20:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Oswald\_Bastable](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oswald_bastable/32/214_2.png) [@Oswald\_Bastable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oswald_Bastable)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/61 "2005-11-10T16:14:56Z")
How about **Michael Moorcock** šŸ˜ƒ ? The core Eternal Champion books (Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon) should be pretty much essential reading for any fantasy fan - genre breaking and genre defining stuff, although maybe a little too doom ladened for your likingā€¦ OB ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/62 "2005-11-10T16:44:34Z")
Which Kate Elliott series did you start reading? The Crown of Stars, or Jaran? Iā€™m always looking for someone whoā€™s read the Jaran books, whether or not if they like them. ---
**Author:** ![marque\_elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71c47a/32.png) [@marque\_elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marque_elf)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/63 "2005-11-10T16:50:29Z")
Lois McMaster Bujold is better known for her books about Miles Vorkosigan but she has written several fantasies set in a land called Chalion. The woman is incapable of writing a bad sentence. The books feature very strong female protagonists or supporting characters. The emphasis is on the people not the magic. Thereā€™s only 3 so far but they are all good. One book features a middle-aged noble woman which is rare in any fantasy series. Avoid C.J. Cherryhā€™s fantasy like the plague. She writes great science fiction but her fantasy, no matter what the subject matter, is all leaden. I had great hopes for the ones she did based on Russian folktales but they were as bad as all her others. I second Hughart but he may be hard to find. I think his books are out of print. Orson Scott Card wrote a series that is set in an alternate history America where people have ā€œknacksā€ which allow them to do magic. The series is the Alvin Maker series. The first 3 books were great. The last 2, not so much. The milieu is midwest America in the mid 1800s. Abraham Lincoln and Jim Bowie are characters in the latest books in the series. Tecumseh and William Henry Harrison are also featured characters. Even in the weaker latter books the series remains interesting. As to a book exchange, Iā€™m up for it. Anybody else interested? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/64 "2005-11-10T17:04:15Z")
> [@kushiel](#): > > Which Kate Elliott series did you start reading? The Crown of Stars, or Jaran? > > Iā€™m always looking for someone whoā€™s read the Jaran books, whether or not if they like them. _Crown of Stars_. Iā€™ll finish the series someday, but I ran out of steam halfway through the last one I read. I think it was Book 5. Those books are ginormous. Do you recommend the Jaran books? I read _Enderā€™s Game_ by Card and didnā€™t like it, so I donā€™t think Card will be high on my list right now. Unless, of course, an overwhelming chorus of ā€œYou must read thisā€ swamps the thread. šŸ™‚ Iā€™ve heard of but havenā€™t read: Bujold (I thought she was sf, but I guess she has more than one series) Cherryh (ditto) Iā€™ve read the beginning of one book by Moorcock. All I remember is a giant mountain that defied physics. I donā€™t think Cook sounds right for me, at least at this point in my life. Now I canā€™t remember if anyone suggested Katherine Kurtz. I meant to ask about her in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/65 "2005-11-10T17:07:20Z")
Give Sean McMullen a try, and start with the \*Voyage of the Shadowmoon \*series. How to describe it? Picture yourself in the same room with a drunken Australian whoā€™s got a gift for telling stories but tends to ramble. The next chapter could take place a minute later or a year later. A little schooner all the sudden turns over and shields its crew from the equivalent of a nuclear blast because itā€™s actually a spy ship with a protective shell! A pasha is preparing to sleep with one of his slave girls when a newly-made vampire who has trouble talking with extended canines pops up and tells him not to do it or sheā€™ll kill him. Itā€™s outrageous stuff somebody comes up with on the spot, and itā€™s a lot of fun to read. ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/66 "2005-11-10T17:07:40Z")
I second (or third) Robin Hobb. Sheā€™s the only author whose book I ordered from England, in hard back, because I wanted to read it more than I wanted to save the money. Three trilogies, should be read in order, though the second trilogy (the Liveship Traders), while set in the same world and with one character from the other books, is separate from the first and third. I also love Elizabeth Haydon, Sara Douglass, Holly Lisle, and Trudi Canavan. (Believe it or not, I also read male fantasy authors; itā€™s just that most of them have already been named by the OP) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/67 "2005-11-10T17:10:14Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > ā€¦snipā€¦ > Now I canā€™t remember if anyone suggested Katherine Kurtz. I meant to ask about her in the OP. I havenā€™t read her books since the 80ā€™s. They were okay but not great. Medieval Fantasy with lots of Church involvement. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/68 "2005-11-10T17:27:50Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I havenā€™t read her books since the 80ā€™s. They were okay but not great. Medieval Fantasy with lots of Church involvement. They were also really depressing, suffering and tragedy right and left. > [@DeadlyAccurate](#): > > Holly Lisle, I canā€™t handle her. Good writer, but _really_ depressing. The poor woman in _Diplomacy of Wolves_ who gets gang raped and turned into a freak comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/69 "2005-11-10T17:30:56Z")
I havenā€™t read Douglass or McMullen. Iā€™ve read a little by Haydon and Lisle. I liked Lisle (Diplomacy of Wolves) quite a bit, not so taken with Haydon. Medieval fantasy with lots of Church sounds good. I enjoy fantastical takes on the Church, like Brenchley, Elliott, and Marie Jakober. Book exchange sounds neat, though much of my reading is from the library. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/70 "2005-11-10T17:39:01Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > I canā€™t handle her. Good writer, but _really_ depressing. The poor woman in _Diplomacy of Wolves_ who gets gang raped and turned into a freak comes to mind. Ah. When I was writing my reply, I was thinking ā€œI read that book. I think it was good. I wonder why I never read another in the series.ā€ Now I remember. Yet more evidence that I need to keep a journal of these things. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/71 "2005-11-10T18:03:51Z")
What a useful thread - I know Iā€™ve certainly gotten some ideas for future reading. I popped in again to note that author Barry Hughart actually wrote 3 books using his main characters from Bridge of Birds . The first two were wonderful; the 3rd ran out of steam, I thought. For truly light fantasy (but still quite well written) check out these fun series found in the childrenā€™s section of the library: Deb Glioriā€™s series that starts with Pure Dead Magic ; and Gerald Morrisā€™ series retelling the Arthurian legends. It starts with The Squireā€™s Tale and is up to 7 books I think now. - Theyā€™ll balance out those ā€œbookstopā€ book series. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/72 "2005-11-10T18:26:24Z")
> [@well he's back](#): > > What a useful thread - I know Iā€™ve certainly gotten some ideas for future reading. Iā€™m glad itā€™s been useful for someone else, too. I know that Iā€™m missing out on some fantastic stuff by not being able to stomach the GRR Martins or the Ricardo Pintos. Maybe itā€™ll be easier someday. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/73 "2005-11-10T18:54:07Z")
If you like hero-against-the-forces-of-evil fantasy, thereā€™s the Bahzell books by David Weber. Bahzell is a 7 foot nine inch hradani ( big, strong, mobile pointed ears ) from the Horse Stealer Clan who becomes a champion of TomanĆ¢k, God of War and Justice. Amusing detail : Bahzell is so stubbornly independent that the gods literally had to pester him into joining up; he still gets into regular arguments with TomanĆ¢k. Heā€™s not a ā€œshining paladinā€ type of champion, more the sort who goes around in plain armor, hunts down the bad guys, and chops them into bits. Itā€™s pretty bloody, and some nasty stuff happens, but the ones doing it tend to come to bad ends. Usually because Bahzell shows upā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/74 "2005-11-10T19:25:47Z")
> [@Oswald Bastable](#): > > How about **Michael Moorcock** šŸ˜ƒ ? The core Eternal Champion books (Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon) should be pretty much essential reading for any fantasy fan - genre breaking and genre defining stuff, although maybe a little too doom ladened for your likingā€¦ > > OB Awā€¦I was reading this thread, and I was astonished that no-one had mentioned Moorcock (although itā€™s not surprising you did, given your name). Moorcock is pulpy, and I mean that in the best sense. Once you get into one of his books, youā€™ll look up at the clock and see itā€™s 3am. Very action-oriented, with the good old Good v. Evil dressed up as Law v. Chaos! Yum. I canā€™t say enough about Gene Wolfe. Theyā€™re not easy reads, but very fulfilling once youā€™re done. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/75 "2005-11-10T20:12:19Z")
A coupla authors I havenā€™t seen mentioned yet, but who probably should be, if only for completeness: Philip Pullmanā€™s _His Dark Materials_ trilogy. People differ in their opinions of Pullman. Personally, I think the series starts out wonderfully and has enough great stuff in it to make it definitely worth reading, but the ending is disappointing and doesnā€™t live up to the first two books. Terry Brooks started his career with _The Sword of Shanara_, a blatant _Lord of the Rings_ ripoff but better than some such. Since then heā€™s gone on to write quite a few more fantasy novels, most of which I havenā€™t read; perhaps someone else would care to comment on them. L. Frank Baumā€™s Oz books arenā€™t exactly epic fantasy, but theyā€™re maybe in the same ballpark. Theyā€™re a bit dated and juvenile, but they are imaginative, lighthearted, and fun (and, since theyā€™re in the public domain, available online). ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/76 "2005-11-10T20:18:56Z")
I hate hate hate the Pullman Dark Materials things. and I can never forgive Brooks for ripping off Lord of the Rings. Just have to get that off my chest once a month or so. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/77 "2005-11-10T22:43:07Z")
I third or fourth Robin Hobb, the Assasin trilogy and the Tawny Man trilogy. I didnā€™t like the magic ship ones so muchā€¦ Guy Gavriel Kay wonā€™t kill characters even when he should, so heā€™s probably good. My current favorite is Jacqueline Carey, but I donā€™t know if sheā€™s what your looking for. Her _Kushiel_ series is really excellently written, but thereā€™s a heavy-duty S&M element (the protagonists are a masochist/courtesan/spy and her warrior-priest bodyguard). ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/78 "2005-11-12T05:37:17Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > _Crown of Stars_. Iā€™ll finish the series someday, but I ran out of steam halfway through the last one I read. I think it was Book 5. Those books are ginormous. > > Do you recommend the Jaran books? Wellā€¦they arenā€™t exactly traditional fantasy. Most of the book takes place on a world where the main race consists of a bunch of nomadic Russian tribes. However, that world is just a small planet in the universe, which has evolved to sci-fi like proportions and is ruled by an alien race. The main character, while trying to thwart the plans of the alien race (her brother leads the rebellion against them), ends up on the unevolved planet and with the tribes. Itā€™s pretty hard to explain. But if you do choose to try the first book, donā€™t judge the entire series by that. The style of writing and plot and event structure changes drastically over the course of the four books currently out. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/79 "2005-11-12T05:41:43Z")
> [@Orual](#): > > My current favorite is Jacqueline Carey, but I donā€™t know if sheā€™s what your looking for. Her _Kushiel_ series is really excellently written, but thereā€™s a heavy-duty S&M element (the protagonists are a masochist/courtesan/spy and her warrior-priest bodyguard). šŸ˜ƒšŸ˜ƒšŸ˜ƒ The Kushiel books are more for fans of historical fantasy than of traditional swords and sorcery though - the entire world is made up of countries from different time periods in history. Renaissance Italy, viking-era Northern Europe, Persiaā€¦ Speaking of Jacqueline Carey, her Sundering duology (Banewreaker and Godslayer) is really great. Very Tolkien-esque, except from the POV of the villains. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247/80 "2005-11-16T19:12:36Z")
I have been unable to find anything by Evangeline Walton in the local library system (they are connected to all of the libraries in SE Ohio). Bummer. I have placed on order from the library: Lynn Flewellingā€™s _The Bone Dollā€™s Twin_ Robin Hobbā€™s _Assassinā€™s Apprentice_ Gene Wolfeā€™s _Shadow of the Torturer_ (took me a long time to figure out what I was looking for. I am dense.) I probably wonā€™t get any of these until Monday, but Iā€™m looking forward to it, and the next round, too! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-epic-fantasy-but/330247.md?page=5)