# Want to play Miss Manners? Who is in the wrong here? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 25, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755 "2004-07-25T02:37:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/61 "2004-07-25T22:21:57Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If i invite people around to my house to eat, they will be served vegetarian food. If someone invites me over for dinner, i make it clear that i cannot and will not eat meat, and give them an opportunity to rescind the invitation if it is likely to be a hassle for them. I find it interesting that you seek to have things your way, both as a guest, and as a host. Isn’t that a tad selfish? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/62 "2004-07-25T22:23:40Z")
If I consider eating babies morally/religiously abhorrent, wouldn’t it be weird if I were friends with people who eat babies, and went to restaurants where they serve babies, but then got upset that my friends ordered babies and I had to pay for them? The truth is, if I find a particular behavior so morally repugnant, I cannot be friends with people who practice it, or hang out in places where it is practiced. As for the religious/karmic aspect, I can imagine someone explaining themselves to ‘God’: “Yeah, I was friends with Joe, who did morally repugnant and sinful things, and we hung out at places where these things were practiced, but at least Joe never made me pay for these things”. ‘God’'s reaction: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/63 "2004-07-25T22:54:27Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > I find it interesting that you seek to have things your way, both as a guest, and as a host. Isn’t that a tad selfish? Not at all. People are quite free to refuse my invitations to dinner if being served vegetarian food offends them. The fact that none of them have yet done so suggests that the food being served is of good quality. No-one i know has expressed a moral objection to eating vegetarian food. Within my vegetarianism, i also make every effort to accommodate other food needs (allergies, veganism, lactose intolerance, whatever). And when i have a large gathering (like a barbecue) i provide proper beef burgers and chicken. People are also, as i said in my previous post, quite welcome to avoid asking me to dinner if my need for vegetarian food inconveniences them in any way. But i have yet to meet a person who serves nothing but meat. Even my most carnivorous friends actually eat vegetables, rice, pasta, etc. as an accompaniment to their meat dishes. Of course, if you’d read my previous post with the slightest bit of intelligence and ingenuousness, that would all have been clear to you. I don’t expect anyone to change for me. Of course, i would never be able to eat at your place, because your performance on these boards suggests that your diet consists almost exclusively of crow. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/64 "2004-07-25T23:01:58Z")
A proper host seeks to make his guests comfortable (even if they eat meat), not foist their crazy beliefs on their friends. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/65 "2004-07-25T23:02:43Z")
W00t! People are agreeing with me… Sorry, never mind. I’ve reread what I said before and would just like to agree with several people that it’s a no fault thing. The analogy I’d propose is when you accidently tread on someone’s foot or something – it’s not your fault, as it’s unavoidable, but you feel bad that you did it, so you say “sorry”. It felt before like I was siding with Jain – I don’t think I was, I think I was reacting against the impression that if we decided Hubby wasn’t at fault, it’d be an excuse for him to go to Jain and say “Yah boo to you! I’m right and you’re wrong! Rude man, I don’t know, vegans…” not that he would, but that he’d feel it, or people here would feel it and advise based on that – which is just going to cause trouble. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/66 "2004-07-25T23:17:08Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > A proper host seeks to make his guests comfortable (even if they eat meat), not foist their crazy beliefs on their friends. None of my guests has ever expressed the slightest discomfort at the food i have served them, which usually consists of a three-course meal prepared carefully over a period of several hours. The meal is always balanced, with a good mix of protein, carbohydrates, vitamins, and minerals, and is (if i do say so myself) usually very tasty. I assume that if the food content worried them, they would find an excuse to decline subsequent invitations. The fact that none of them has yet done so is suggestive of their feelings on the matter. Personally, i think someone that feels the need to eat meat at _every single meal_ (which is what you’re implying) certainly has no fewer “crazy beliefs” than someone who chooses not to eat meat at all. But, if this is really worrying you, lest me be the first to reassure you that you will never be made to feel uncomfortable at my dinner table. We generally invite people who can keep up with an intelligent conversation. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/67 "2004-07-25T23:22:22Z")
Are you done with the insults in the wrong forum? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/68 "2004-07-25T23:41:50Z")
Are you done with ignorance on the wrong message board? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/69 "2004-07-25T23:46:20Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > Frankly, I don’t buy for a second that this guy thought SBS and hubby knew. He knows and has pointed out to them on multiple occasions how little Americans generally know about his religion. He never bothered to tell them himself, and afaict he never bothered to find out if Polly had told them either. Being a bit upset at the time and afterward saying, “Hey, Pol, I thought you told them about the not-paying-for-meat thing,” would have been reasonable. Being upset after finding that yes, they knew and ordered meat anyway or that no, she forgot all about telling them and felt awkward saying something at dinner would have been reasonable. Automatically assuming that Hubby is disrespectful and manipulative, however, is decidedly NOT reasonable. IF he though his wife had explained things to them, then it was not unreasonable for him to think the hubby had been deliberately rude. [hijack] Out of curiosity, what does ascribing malice where none exists do for your karma? It seems like a pretty shitty way to treat people, so I can’t imagine it would build you any good karma. [/hijack] [/quote] Who said he _did_ ascribe malice? he blew off some steam to his wife. **SDS** already said that he thought Polly had explained things to his wife, so in the initial part of the conversation I can see where he might have thought the dude had been rude. In any case, he didn’t say anything to anyone but his wife , so it’s hard to say the Jain was a dick to anyone. Oh, and it’s not bad karma if you believe it. > [@Polerius](#): > > As for the religious/karmic aspect, I can imagine someone explaining themselves to ‘God’: “Yeah, I was friends with Joe, who did morally repugnant and sinful things, and we hung out at places where these things were practiced, but at least Joe never made me pay for these things”. > > ‘God’'s reaction: :rolleyes: There is no God in Jainism, and there is no bad karma incurred simply being in the presence of someone else who is eating meat. Individuals are responsible for their own karma, not anyone else’s. There is no guilt by association. You actually have to do something bad yourself to get bad karma. It’s also ok for a Jain to go to a restaurant that serves meat as long as he doesn’t eat any. That may sound logically inconsistent to you but show me a religion that IS logically consistent. ---
**Author:** ![LolaBaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LolaBaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaBaby)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/70 "2004-07-25T23:50:56Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > None of my guests has ever expressed the slightest discomfort at the food i have served them, which usually consists of a three-course meal prepared carefully over a period of several hours. The meal is always balanced, with a good mix of protein, carbohydrates, vitamins, and minerals, and is (if i do say so myself) usually very tasty. I assume that if the food content worried them, they would find an excuse to decline subsequent invitations. The fact that none of them has yet done so is suggestive of their feelings on the matter. > > Personally, i think someone that feels the need to eat meat at _every single meal_ (which is what you’re implying) certainly has no fewer “crazy beliefs” than someone who chooses not to eat meat at all. Let’s not forget that the main purpose is to spend time with YOU, too. I doubt someone who enjoyed your company would make the food content a major factor in their decision to accept invitations or not. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/71 "2004-07-25T23:51:01Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Are you done with ignorance on the wrong message board? Ha Ha, shouldn’t this be in the Pit? ---
**Author:** ![LolaBaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LolaBaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaBaby)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/72 "2004-07-25T23:55:49Z")
I don’t think it has to be if the both of you drop it. Smile! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/73 "2004-07-26T00:10:52Z")
> [@LolaBaby](#): > > I don’t think it has to be if the both of you drop it. Smile! 😃 I’m more than willing to drop it if he apologizes. ---
**Author:** ![LolaBaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LolaBaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaBaby)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/74 "2004-07-26T00:16:10Z")
Well, I’m not gonna mention this anymore, but just that you called him selfish first and he clarified his statement (which I understood with no clarification). Seems to me this is an example-within-a-thread. Bye. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/75 "2004-07-26T00:21:12Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > I’m more than willing to drop it if he apologizes. And a comedian, too! ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/76 "2004-07-26T00:22:38Z")
> [@LolaBaby](#): > > Well, I’m not gonna mention this anymore, but just that you called him selfish first and he clarified his statement (which I understood with no clarification). > > Seems to me this is an example-within-a-thread. So you agree that somehow, it’s Ok to make your own fetishes more important than your guests’ comfort? ---
**Author:** ![LolaBaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LolaBaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaBaby)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/77 "2004-07-26T00:32:11Z")
Hey **mhendo** I think this was as clear as you could get > [@](#): > > \*People are quite free to refuse my invitations to dinner if being served vegetarian food offends them. \* The fact that none of them have yet done so suggests that the food being served is of good quality. No-one i know has expressed a moral objection to eating vegetarian food. Within my vegetarianism, i also make every effort to accommodate other food needs (allergies, veganism, lactose intolerance, whatever). > > _And when i have a large gathering (like a barbecue) i provide proper beef burgers and chicken._ > > _People are also, as i said in my previous post, quite welcome to avoid asking me to dinner if my need for vegetarian food inconveniences them in any way._ But i have yet to meet a person who serves nothing but meat. Even my most carnivorous friends actually eat vegetables, rice, pasta, etc. as an accompaniment to their meat dishes. [chandler bing]Could you GET ANY CLEARER?[/chandler bing] 😃 Playing Miss Manners _here_ (and I don’t want to be accused of junior modding here) but you insulted him first by calling him selfish, he replied and clarified. IMHO he owes you no apology. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/78 "2004-07-26T00:37:29Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > So you agree that somehow, it’s Ok to make your own fetishes more important than your guests’ comfort? Imagine that someone is coming to your house for dinner and that someone tells you his favorite dish is dog soup. He loves dog soup. He would really appreciate it you could have some dog soup ready for him when he gets there. Are you going to cook him a dog, or are you going to let your own “fetish” get ahead of your guest’s comfort? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/79 "2004-07-26T00:51:47Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Imagine that someone is coming to your house for dinner and that someone tells you his favorite dish is dog soup. He loves dog soup. He would really appreciate it you could have some dog soup ready for him when he gets there. > > Are you going to cook him a dog, or are you going to let your own “fetish” get ahead of your guest’s comfort? Chicken, beef, and fish do not equal dog. Your analogy is flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Carbona\_Not\_Glue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Carbona\_Not\_Glue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carbona_Not_Glue)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755/80 "2004-07-26T01:07:36Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Chicken, beef, and fish do not equal dog. Your analogy is flawed. They do in some cultures. Or is that a “fetish” that doesn’t count? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-play-miss-manners-who-is-in-the-wrong-here/256755.md?page=5)