# Want to ruin a great tv series? Here's how! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 16, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789 "2009-11-16T16:40:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/21 "2009-11-17T01:03:00Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Good Times > Grace Under Fire To be fair, both those shows were unusual. John Amos the father on “Good Times,” simply didn’t get along with Norman Lear. John Amos was at best a third wheel behind JJ and Florida, and possibly even behind neighbor Willona and the other kids. Esther Rolle also had issues with Lear, she then went to Jet Magazine and expressed them publicly. Rolle basically complained about the JJ character that he was a grown man who didn’t work. She said it was irresponsible to teach black youth they can get by in life by spouting a catchphrase. (Of course that was before rap caught on :D) As for “Grace Under Fire,” Brett Butler had enourmous mental health issues, incuding exposing herself inappropriatly to the little boy. Noticed how he was replaced with a much older boy. I’d say those retools were somewhat necessary to make the series continue. You will note Lear didn’t get along with Caroll O’Conner and threatened to have Archie killed off. Remember the series of episode where no one could find Archie. But CBS went to Lear and told him, in a showdown between you and O’Conner we’ll go with him. So Lear backed off and instead of killing off Archie, he was simply on a three day drunk My favourite example of how to retool a series to ruin it was the 70s sitcom “Angie,” which was quite funny and enjoyable the first year. Many of you will remember the theme song called “Different Worlds” by Maureen McGovern. The whole POINT of that show was Brad = Rich and Angie = Poor. They marry and the hilarity is all about Brad trying to adjust to Angie’s “poorness” while Angie has to somehow try to fit into Brad’s “rich world.” So the second seaon rolls around and they forget all about Brad’s rich side of the family, move Angie and Brad out of the family house (which is a mansion) and into a small surbuban type house. Suddenly there is no “different worlds” Brad moved into Angie’s world and that ws that. That was also it for the comedy too, since the move effectively ended all conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/22 "2009-11-17T01:37:56Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Stunt casting the baby with Jonathan Winters- capital crime. In all fairness to Mr. Winters, Laurence Olivier could’ve played the baby and the show would still suck. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/23 "2009-11-17T01:39:53Z")
Change the type of show it is: There was a great humorous action comedy that used to be on. The four co-stars worked great together. It was funny and witty. Then it comes back the following season: one of the costars is gone, most of the witty banter is gone and its become just another somewhat depressing spy thriller. Sorry I don’t remember the name of the show. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/24 "2009-11-17T01:48:12Z")
Take an very entertaining [comedy-mystery show](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056745/), with some wry humor, an interesting detective, and some strong plotting and jettison everything it to cash in on the current spy film craze. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/25 "2009-11-17T02:24:28Z")
> [@Johnny\_Q](#): > > In all fairness to Mr. Winters, Laurence Olivier could’ve played the baby and the show would still suck. That’s partly because Olivier couldn’t do comedy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/26 "2009-11-17T02:30:54Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > Change the type of show it is: There was a great humorous action comedy that used to be on. The four co-stars worked great together. It was funny and witty. Then it comes back the following season: one of the costars is gone, most of the witty banter is gone and its become just another somewhat depressing spy thriller. > > Sorry I don’t remember the name of the show. _She-Spies_? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/27 "2009-11-17T02:41:25Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > i disagree with both 1 & 2. Will & grace made stunt casting work, as it emphasized the essentially farcical nature of the show. W&g worked best when it was ridiculous. > > which is why i said “almost.” name another series where it worked regularly. 30 Rock? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/28 "2009-11-17T03:03:08Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > 30 Rock? Doesn’t count. “Stunt-casting” is putting some “name” actor in a guest-starring role (as a character other than as themselves) just for the draw. It rarely works, and is almost always embarrassing to all concerned. 1. Put it on FOX (if it is made by Joss Whedon.) ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/29 "2009-11-17T03:14:48Z")
> [@Neidhart](#): > > Dumbing it down like Fox did with _Sliders._ Or like NBC did with _Boomtown_. They took your basic cops-and-lawyers drama and added an interesting _Rashomon_-style presentation. The second season, they did away with that and dumbed it down into just another cops-and-lawyers show. The second season only lasted five or six episodes. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/30 "2009-11-17T03:16:07Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Doesn’t count. “Stunt-casting” is putting some “name” actor in a guest-starring role (as a character other than as themselves) just for the draw. It rarely works, and is almost always embarrassing to all concerned. How does 30 Rock _not_ count? I can think of Steve Martin, Alan Alda and Carrie Fisher (and soon, Al Gore, not an actor but a celebrity) all showing up on the show (Alda in several episodes) for that purpose exactly. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/31 "2009-11-17T03:18:38Z")
You may be right. I’m relying on descriptions of the show second-hand, as I loathe Tina Fey and won’t watch it. If I have shown my ass, please forgive me, and don’t take pictures (although it would make a nice addition to your scrapbook.) ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/32 "2009-11-17T03:26:59Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > (For purposes of this thread, _great tv series_ = _series the poster happens to think is great_. Even if it’s The Sarah Silverman Program. > > As everyone knows, [Joan of Arcadia](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0367345/) was the greatest tv show of all time. Even so, it lasted barely two seasons; no one seemed to want a series about a high school girl who had conversations with an ever-changing-and-very-subtle God. Toward the end of the series, I seem to recall hearing that executives at CBS were considering retooling it to ramp up the fantasy elements. This brought to mind the terrible, terrible image of God giving Joan superpowers ala Buffy the Vampire Slayer, going on quests ala Xena, and perhaps hiding throwing knives in her bosom. Such a thing would have been far worse than the series being cancelled, I think. That would’ve been much more interesting then a God who sends all his time micro-managing the social lives of teenagers. I thought most of the first season was pretty decent, the missions God gave Joan actually made some sizable difference in peoples lives, which made it semi-belivable. By the second season, God’s increasingly bland and increasingly interested in Joans juvinile relationships. They should’ve gone the other way, Joans tasks should’ve gotten harder, more important and done more to estrange her from her friends/family as the series preceded. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/33 "2009-11-17T04:01:17Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > How does 30 Rock _not_ count? I can think of Steve Martin, Alan Alda and Carrie Fisher (and soon, Al Gore, not an actor but a celebrity) all showing up on the show (Alda in several episodes) for that purpose exactly. Not to mention that episode with OPRAH! Plus that time when Jerry Seinfeld was set to be digitally inserted throughout NBC’s lineup! And the one where they reunited the cast of Night Court for purely trivial reasons (plus Jennifer Aniston)! Or the one with all those famous singers, from Elvis Costello to Sheryl Crow, doing a telethon for a single organ donation! Not to mention the fairly-well-hyped bit with David Schwimmer as a corporate shill turned would-be superhero, and the more-well-hyped bit with Jon Hamm, and – aw, heck, I could be here for hours. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/34 "2009-11-17T04:15:10Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Build a compelling, dramatic story over a period of years, requiring fans to wait months between half seasons, and raising lots of fascinating questions. Be sure to include a classic rock song and imply it is somehow crucial to future plot developments. For the last half season, be sure to promote the hell out of it being the final few episodes and that “all will be revealed”. Then waste hours of precious final episodes screentime with tedious boring crap, have your heroes quit, abandon their weapons/technology, and go off to live like hunter gatherers. All those fascinating questions to which you promised answers? Meh. God did it. Never explain the song. Fade to black, series over. > > Yes, I am still bitter. > [@FriarTed](#): > > I hate to ask- what was the show? > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > _Battlestar Galactica_. The counselor was vexed by the ending. Funny, that’s oddly similar to the last season of The Sopranos. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/35 "2009-11-17T04:30:50Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > (For purposes of this thread, _great tv series_ = _series the poster happens to think is great_. Even if it’s The Sarah Silverman Program. > > As everyone knows, [Joan of Arcadia](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0367345/) was the greatest tv show of all time. Even so, it lasted barely two seasons; no one seemed to want a series about a high school girl who had conversations with an ever-changing-and-very-subtle God. Toward the end of the series, I seem to recall hearing that executives at CBS were considering retooling it to ramp up the fantasy elements. This brought to mind the terrible, terrible image of God giving Joan superpowers ala Buffy the Vampire Slayer, going on quests ala Xena, and perhaps hiding throwing knives in her bosom. Such a thing would have been far worse than the series being cancelled, I think. > > What other ways can you think of to destroy a series you love? It also had a first rate cast . ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/36 "2009-11-17T04:36:40Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Funny, that’s oddly similar to the last season of The Sopranos. Edit a few details, and you’ve also got The X-Files. (It took me a while to figure out that he _wasn’t_ talking about The X-Files. I kept thinking “I don’t remember any particular classic rock song…”) ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/37 "2009-11-17T12:24:29Z")
> [@BiblioCat](#): > > Or like NBC did with _Boomtown_. They took your basic cops-and-lawyers drama and added an interesting _Rashomon_-style presentation. > The second season, they did away with that and dumbed it down into just another cops-and-lawyers show. The second season only lasted five or six episodes. [Sarcasm]Ah, but they had a much-previewed lesbian kiss in the second season! Shows are always better with a lesbian kiss.[/Sarcasm] Yeah, I loved that show the first season. ---
**Author:** ![StoutHearted](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@StoutHearted](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StoutHearted)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/38 "2009-11-17T12:56:22Z")
Nothing says “I give up” like adding a baby to the cast of characters. It supplies writers with a few new plot lines that quickly lose steam. Then they’re stuck with this kid that they don’t know what to do with, and their characters are no fun anymore now that they are supposed to look like responsible parents. Also, **Dirty Sexy Money** was ruined in the second season by becoming this soap-opera- shell of itself. The series was fine the way it was. But after the change, everyone’s personality was different. They might as well have thrown linebacker-sized shoulder pads on the women and had them wrestle in a fountain. That series died a slow, agonizing death thanks to the network’s “tweaking.” ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/39 "2009-11-17T13:01:32Z")
Take your classic historical mystery series and change it to the modern day. Then move it from the exotic foreign country to somewhere in California, where it’s easy to film. Then get rid of all the actors except the nominal star of the series. That’s how ABC took the pilot film _Judge Dee and the Monastery Murders_, based on Robert H. von Gulik’s mystery series about a real Chinese T’ang dynasty judge and turned it into the series _Chang!_, set in modern-day San Francisco.They managed to strip away everything that made it at all different and interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789/40 "2009-11-17T13:56:23Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Take a supporting character who works best in small doses as a sharp counterpoint to the lead, then gradually focus the story more and more around them until the original lead character is simply a backdrop. Ah, I see you watch [del]Thirteen[/del] House. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/want-to-ruin-a-great-tv-series-heres-how/517789.md?page=3)