# WaPo editorial "Why America needs a hate speech law" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699 "2019-10-30T14:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/41 "2019-10-30T18:56:27Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Again, this is all fine and well in theory, but how is it going to work out in practice? There is likely to be a punch-up vs. punch-down phenomenon at play in real life, whereby if someone from a disadvantaged group spews hate speech against a privileged group, it won’t be considered as prosecute-able as vice versa. I was asked to provide a definition of “hate speech” when I objected to **Shodan’s** petty, self-serving definition of the term, and I did. If you prefer his “it is only hate speech if it offends me but not if it offends you”, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/42 "2019-10-30T18:58:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You did provide one example. They are rare, and certainly not accepted by the so called ‘left’ except for a few extremists. That is no where near a ‘fair bit’ of that kind of speech though, it’s one of the weakest ‘what aboutisms’ I’ve ever seen. YOU are the one that asked me for “one example”: > [@TriPolar](#): > > Got even one instance of that happening? And as for “certainly not accepted by the so called ‘left’ except for a few extremists”, Sarah Jeong got a plum position on the NYT Editorial Board even after this came to light. How is that “not accepted”? Is the NYT Editorial Board just “a few extremists”? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/43 "2019-10-30T19:04:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What’s the “context” around “white men are bullshit” that you think would make it acceptable? The fact that it’s clearly sarcastic and satirical ? Do you also want to get on Swift’s case for his hate speech against the poor and their children ? ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/44 "2019-10-30T19:08:20Z")
**Czarcasm** are you in favor of passing some type of hate speech legislation or are you just playing devil’s advocate here, what is your position? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/45 "2019-10-30T19:26:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > From Wiki: “Hate speech is a statement intended to demean and brutalize another, or the use of cruel and derogatory language on the basis of real or alleged membership in a social group. Hate speech is speech that attacks a person or a group on the basis of protected attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, national origin, sex, disability, sexual orientation, or gender identity.” This would include: - A black comedian telling a joke that makes fun of white people - A Jehovah’s Witness saying Catholicism is not the true faith and Catholics are going to hell - A person saying men who identify as women should not be allowed to play women’s sports - Seth MacFarlane, who once made an episode of “Family Guy” that made a lot of mean jokes at the expense of Italian-Americans - A woman saying men present a danger to women because sexual assault is more prevalent than people want to believe - Dave Chappelle, like a thousand times over I’m just going by your Wikipedia definition. You can’t base a law on this. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/46 "2019-10-30T19:31:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This would include: > > - A black comedian telling a joke that makes fun of white people > - A Jehovah’s Witness saying Catholicism is not the true faith and Catholics are going to hell > - A person saying men who identify as women should not be allowed to play women’s sports > - Seth MacFarlane, who once made an episode of “Family Guy” that made a lot of mean jokes at the expense of Italian-Americans > - A woman saying men present a danger to women because sexual assault is more prevalent than people want to believe > - Dave Chappelle, like a thousand times over > > I’m just going by your Wikipedia definition. You can’t base a law on this. No, but you could use it as a base to begin talks about the subject, unlike the version I objected to in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/47 "2019-10-30T19:35:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > YOU are the one that asked me for “one example”: > > > [@](#): > > > > You said there was a fair bit of it. There isn’t. > > And as for “certainly not accepted by the so called ‘left’ except for a few extremists”, Sarah Jeong got a plum position on the NYT Editorial Board even after this came to light. How is that “not accepted”? Is the NYT Editorial Board just “a few extremists”? I won’t defend them. They are not the representatives of the left though. Hate speech of this nature is not defensible by anyone, none of it justifies it’s use elsewhere. If you’re not going to condemn all of it then you are supporting it. If you are condemning all of it there’s no reason to categorize the targets of it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/48 "2019-10-30T19:37:25Z")
Sounds like the modern left’s dream come true. That said, it’s a terrible, terrible idea and the author should feel bad. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/49 "2019-10-30T19:44:45Z")
I think it’s a bad idea. Hate speech is wrong but we shouldn’t make it illegal. It’ll still exist but we’ll drive it underground where it will fester. We’re better off as a society is we let these people talk, identify who they are, and then marginalize them. And banning speech is a dangerous precedent. If we ban hate speech today, we’ll end up banning legitimate speech that somebody in power just wants to suppress. We’ll have Republicans making it illegal to disrespect President Trump and corporations getting laws passed against “defaming” their products by reporting consumer problems. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/50 "2019-10-30T19:47:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Sounds like the modern left’s dream come true. The modern left weren’t the ones trying to make it illegal to burn a flag or calling for the NFL to discipline payers who kneeled down during the National Anthem. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/51 "2019-10-30T19:47:30Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I won’t defend them. They are not the representatives of the left though. Hate speech of this nature is not defensible by anyone, none of it justifies it’s use elsewhere. If you’re not going to condemn all of it then you are supporting it. If you are condemning all of it there’s no reason to categorize the targets of it. That’s fair. I doubt it’ll be believed or accepted here, but I don’t think the extremists on the right that engage in hate speech are generally representative of “the right” either. If I understand your position on this, it’s that hate speech shouldn’t be acceptable to anyone, by anyone, or about anyone, but you don’t want the government to censor it. Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/52 "2019-10-30T19:51:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The modern left weren’t the ones trying to make it illegal to burn a flag or calling for the NFL to discipline payers who kneeled down during the National Anthem. The NFL is like these forums. I.e. not the government. There is no 1st amendment right to embarrass your employer while on the job. Whatabout the flag burning? At least it’s very very narrow in scope but banning is still a stupid idea. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/53 "2019-10-30T19:55:01Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The modern left weren’t the ones trying to make it illegal to burn a flag or calling for the NFL to discipline payers who kneeled down during the National Anthem. I think this serves to illustrate the point, though - this is exactly the can of worms that speech-suppression laws could open. Trump and/or the right could abuse such laws just as much as the left could. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/54 "2019-10-30T19:55:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think it’s a bad idea. Hate speech is wrong but we shouldn’t make it illegal. It’ll still exist but we’ll drive it underground where it will fester. We’re better off as a society is we let these people talk, identify who they are, and then marginalize them. > . That would be a great argument if it was backed by reality. I’m not sure hate speech laws have much positive effect but you are asserting a negative effect. Do you really think nazis are festering in Canada, with its hate speech laws, but has been happily marginalized in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/55 "2019-10-30T19:57:25Z")
As early as 2 years ago, [The Atlantic had already written that arguing for free speech to be curtailed - in an era where Trump and the GOP are in power - is not going to work out the way progressives want.](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/the-most-shortsighted-attack-on-free-speech-in-modern-history/537468/) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/56 "2019-10-30T20:56:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > (well, those newspapers won’t sell themselves) > > [Here](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/48sWnzCJfTj3GptSzx6PXmq/the-10-principles-for-free-speech) and [here](https://www.wired.com/beyond-the-beyond/2016/07/ten-principles-free-speech-timothy-garton-ash/) are (non-paywalled) links to his list of 10 principles of free speech, as at least a starting point. What should happen if someone violates one or all of those ten principles of free speech? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/57 "2019-10-30T23:21:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The NFL is like these forums. I.e. not the government. There is no 1st amendment right to embarrass your employer while on the job. But Donald Trump, who is a powerful government figure, has on numerous occasions publicly called on the NFL to punish the players who protest. And has said there might be negative consequences for the NFL if they didn’t follow his “suggestions”. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/58 "2019-10-30T23:25:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But Donald Trump, who is a powerful government figure, has on numerous occasions publicly called on the NFL to punish the players who protest. And has said there might be negative consequences for the NFL if they didn’t follow his “suggestions”. I’m pretty sure this is the best argument you can make to support the concepts of limited government and strong support for individual liberty. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/59 "2019-10-30T23:34:24Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That would be a great argument if it was backed by reality. I’m not sure hate speech laws have much positive effect but you are asserting a negative effect. Do you really think nazis are festering in Canada, with its hate speech laws, but has been happily marginalized in the US? I think the Trump administration demonstrates why this is a bad idea. We are seeing a resurgence of racism because we have a presidential administration that supports racism. So what would happen if we placed limits on the First Amendment? Would the Trump administration then be compelled to combat racism? No, they would simply ignore any hate speech violations they agree with and leave the laws unenforced. They would instead use that same power to silence their political opponents, including those who are speaking out against racism. We have to remember that a government that has the power to ban hate speech also has the power to ban any other kind of speech and will choose how to use that power. If we enact a law that allows the government to shut down Nazi rallies, they can use that law to shut down Black Lives Matter protests. So overall we’re better off with a government that doesn’t have that power. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699/60 "2019-10-30T23:37:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’m pretty sure this is the best argument you can make to support the concepts of limited government and strong support for individual liberty. I agree. Anyone who believes in the concepts of limited government and strong support for individual liberty should be openly speaking out against Donald Trump for his opposition to them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wapo-editorial-why-america-needs-a-hate-speech-law/842699.md?page=4)