# War Between the States, 2013: Georgia wants a piece of Tennessee **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 2, 2013, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605 "2013-04-02T06:17:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/21 "2013-04-02T14:44:21Z")
[How the States Got Their Shapes](http://www.amazon.com/How-States-Got-Their-Shapes/dp/0061431397) has history of all the border disputes between the states. ---
**Author:** ![Jimbabweosu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85f322/32.png) [@Jimbabweosu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimbabweosu)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/22 "2013-04-02T14:50:15Z")
Well, Runner Pat, then, to quote Bender: John Denver can kiss my shiny-metal A$$. I could certainly say some negative things about his beloved West Virginia (A beautiful state, BTW). ---
**Author:** ![Celidin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Celidin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celidin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/23 "2013-04-02T14:58:24Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I wonder whether there will ever be a dispute between DE and NJ over the ownership of a few acres on the Jersey side of the Delaware. They are landfill, but for some reason the boundary between those states is at the Jersey bank, rather than mid-river. So when the landfill was added, it was on the Delaware side. I don’t think they make any attempt to assert ownership. If someone built a house there and then wanted to send their kids to school, DE would have to pay NJ to take them. Doesn’t sound like there is anything in it for DE. The reason NJ doesn’t dispute this is because of how the Supreme Court ruled in the NJ/NY dispute over Ellis Island/Liberty Island. Essentially, if you divide the Hudson River/Bay down the middle, those two islands would be on the NJ side. But since time immortal, they were considered part of NY. When NJ contested this, the Supreme Court came up with this compromise: all the land that was originally part of the island above water was NY, all of the area that was under water was NJ. Which meant that all of the fill that was added to Ellis Island to accommodate it’s immigration duties became part of New Jersey. Basically, NJ can’t really dispute the Delaware side without causing issues with the NY/NJ split (since it’s essentially the same issue) … and in reality, it’s a handful of acres of not-really-useful land in pretty industrial areas so the “house with kid” example probably isn’t a concern anytime soon. [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellis_Island#State_sovereignty_dispute) has a decent description of the NY/NJ/Ellis Island dispute. How the States Got Their Shapes, linked above, is a really good resource for more. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/24 "2013-04-02T15:13:23Z")
> [@Stana\_Claus](#): > > My biggest concern about the whole thing is what will happen to the water levels downstream if Georgia starts sucking millions (billions?) of gallons per year out of the system. They will be tying in to the Tennessee River just south of Chattanooga and diverting a “Metric Buttload” of water to feed Atlanta. Now, has anybody ever heard of the Tennessee-Tombigbee Waterway that is a major shipping route for a whole bunch of bulk goods? What effect will Georgia’s water grab have on that? And further downstream, the Tennessee River ultimately joins with the Ohio River which feeds into the Mississippi River, which is another key shipping route. Look at what has been happening to the barge traffic on the Mississippi with the drought the past few years. Do we really want to exacerbate that problem? Looking back at the Colorado River and everybody who has tapped into it for their water supply, it doesn’t even make it to the ocean any more. Do we want to let that happen to the Tennessee & Mississippi River systems? This is another problem, not just in the US but around the world. Diverting water out of a river or lake affects everyone downstream. And if the people upstream get too greedy, it becomes a hardship for the people downstream. Again, there comes a point where the local community needs to be forced to live within their means. And that may mean finding ways to limit growth to what the local environment can sustain. **hajario:** for the purposes of my argument, it doesn’t really matter where the water goes; what matters is, it’s being diverted. I’m sure Mexico would like it if that river still had enough water to reach the sea. There are similar problems with rivers and lakes all around the world. Lake Baikal in Russia is a fraction of its original size due to incessant water diversion upstream. ---
**Author:** ![Curious\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Curious\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Curious_Mike)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/25 "2013-04-02T15:21:58Z")
The article linked by MikeS contains the statement: “Additionally, the Tennessee River’s headwaters are located in Georgia, churning out 1.6 billion gallons of day from Georgia for Tennessee.” Really? The Tennessee River forms from the confluence of the Holston River and the French Broad River in Knoxville. The only river that flows from GA into TN is the Ocoee (called Tocoa in GA), which flows into the Hiwassee before flowing into the Tennessee. Seems a bit of a stretch to say that the Tennessee River’s headwaters are located in GA. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/26 "2013-04-02T15:27:37Z")
> [@Celidin](#): > > Basically, NJ can’t really dispute the Delaware side without causing issues with the NY/NJ split (since it’s essentially the same issue) … and in reality, it’s a handful of acres of not-really-useful land in pretty industrial areas so the “house with kid” example probably isn’t a concern anytime soon. Realistically, if this ever became an issue for some reason, New Jersey would probably arrange to sell that little chunk of land to Deleware for some nominal price. There is a similar situation with Michigan and Ohio. There is a tiny bit of land, the tip of a little bitty penninsula, that is not attached to Michigan, but is part of it because it sticks up above the parallel that marks the boundary between Michigan and Ohio. Legally, I think it’s considered a township in Monroe County. The sensible solution would be for Mighigan to sell it to Ohio for a few bucks, but nobody seems to care. I think there’s also at least one tiny island which is split between MI and OH. IIRC, it has the ruins of a lighthouse, but is otherwise an unimportant rock. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/27 "2013-04-02T15:51:23Z")
> [@Curious\_Mike](#): > > The article linked by MikeS contains the statement: > > “Additionally, the Tennessee River’s headwaters are located in Georgia, churning out 1.6 billion gallons of day from Georgia for Tennessee.” > > Really? The Tennessee River forms from the confluence of the Holston River and the French Broad River in Knoxville. The only river that flows from GA into TN is the Ocoee (called Tocoa in GA), which flows into the Hiwassee before flowing into the Tennessee. > > Seems a bit of a stretch to say that the Tennessee River’s headwaters are located in GA. That struck me too. But remember the whole article is written from Georgia’s point of view (seems to be someone who works for a Georgia legislator or in the Attorney General’s office). ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/28 "2013-04-02T16:11:26Z")
The map detail of the contended border is [here](http://ace.mu.nu/), and won’t 404. Scroll down a bit. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/29 "2013-04-02T21:25:04Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Personally, I feel Tennessee has had the legal right to that strip of land on the basis that possession is 9/10th of the law. The common law principle was that possession is 9 points of the law. Under common law, there were nine points favorable to the possessor or occupier. I don’t think adverse possession can be had against a governmental body. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/30 "2013-04-02T23:18:32Z")
> [@Celidin](#): > > The reason NJ doesn’t dispute this is because of how the Supreme Court ruled in the NJ/NY dispute over Ellis Island/Liberty Island. > > Essentially, if you divide the Hudson River/Bay down the middle, those two islands would be on the NJ side. But since time immortal, they were considered part of NY. When NJ contested this, the Supreme Court came up with this compromise: all the land that was originally part of the island above water was NY, all of the area that was under water was NJ. > > Which meant that all of the fill that was added to Ellis Island to accommodate it’s immigration duties became part of New Jersey. > > Basically, NJ can’t really dispute the Delaware side without causing issues with the NY/NJ split (since it’s essentially the same issue) … and in reality, it’s a handful of acres of not-really-useful land in pretty industrial areas so the “house with kid” example probably isn’t a concern anytime soon. > > [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellis_Island#State_sovereignty_dispute) has a decent description of the NY/NJ/Ellis Island dispute. > > How the States Got Their Shapes, linked above, is a really good resource for more. However, while the “landfill goes with owner of river bottom” bit may be true for one chunk of Eastern-Shore Delaware (this is a concessive; I don’t know), the main piece has nothing to do with where the state line runs relative to the river bottom, middle, and banks, but rather that there’s one multiacre stretch of Delaware shoreland surrounded by New Jersey and the Delaware River because it is within 12 miles of New Castle Courthouse – the same reason that Delaware has that arcuate northern boundary that appears to take a bite out of Pennssylvania when compared to the Mason-Dixon line to its west. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/31 "2013-04-03T04:25:36Z")
On NY-NJ battles: The PATH subway line is this strange.(to me) bastard child of the two. After 9/11 ([PATH](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Authority_Trans-Hudson#Port_Authority_takeover) link) Silverman, the holder of the World Trade Center title, was further stymied when the two states bickered over whose land/responsibility it was in any insurance recovery. I think I said it right, but I don’t trust myself. It’s like the Port Authority is the 51st state.Anyone with more knowledge, and how it fell out? Any other “we’ll share it” deals between states? Those must be a bitch to maintain. ---
**Author:** ![Silophant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Silophant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silophant)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/32 "2013-04-03T05:14:30Z")
> [@Jimbabweosu](#): > > I love my hometown… Clevelanders… love theirs. [That’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY) [debatable.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/33 "2013-04-03T07:12:47Z")
Can I say it now? Good. Bad for glass. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/34 "2013-04-04T20:49:39Z")
> [@Jimbabweosu](#): > > As a native Toledoan, born and bred, I take GREAT offense at the implication that Ohio lost the “Toledo War.” It is a tough, rough, old industrial city with an amazing history of immigration, boom, bust, socialism, growth and retreat. It is full of proud, hard-working, good people. It is not a tourist destination, but it is my home, and the home of my family, and a great many of my friends. Good, solid hard-working, generous people, just like their city. > > Have you been to the Toledo Museum of Art? The Zoo? Both are world-class institutions- literally world-class. The Downtown Library- a WPA masterpiece? Tony Packo’s? 5/3 field, home of the Mud-Hens? It is the largest grain-exporting port in the world, and one of the largest transportation hubs in the North Eastern US. > > I love my hometown. Detroiters love theirs. Buffaloans, Clevelanders, San Franciscans, New Yorkers, Bostonians love theirs. > > Ohio won the Toledo War- which was fought because the surveyors of Ohio’s norhern boundary had difficulty in getting the proper line drawn theough the impenetrable Great Black Swamp. When the state decided to build Canals in order to open the western side of the state to white settlement (w/o transportation to get goods to market, settlement was pointless) the northern terminus had to be at Toledo. Clarifying that the site of the City was, and always had been Ohio (MI tried to grab the land in order to get the revenues from the canal) was a major victory, and secured the building of the canal, the opening of settlement, and the tax revenues from the economic development of the now important City, which seems fair, as the state built the canals that enabled the boom. Joke, Joke! I added that WI was the real loser, suggesting that I wasn’t really taking that claim seriously. It just seemed like a funny thing to say. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/35 "2013-04-04T21:09:10Z")
> [@Jimbabweosu](#): > > As a native Toledoan, born and bred, I take GREAT offense at the implication that Ohio lost the “Toledo War.” It is a tough, rough, old industrial city with an amazing history of immigration, boom, bust, socialism, growth and retreat. It is full of proud, hard-working, good people. It is not a tourist destination, but it is my home, and the home of my family, and a great many of my friends. Good, solid hard-working, generous people, just like their city. Corporal Klinger, is that you? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/36 "2013-04-04T21:15:13Z")
The common clay of the new Midwest? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/37 "2013-04-04T21:45:41Z")
Where does the phrase “Holy Toledo” come from? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/38 "2013-04-05T12:26:05Z")
> [@whitetho](#): > > In the 2008 case, the Court noted that the suit involved “tracing title through a series of deeds originating with a 1682 grant from the Duke of York to William Penn”. To avoid that kind of effort (and potential error), most AUS titles are on the Torrens system. Kind of pathetic that a semi-civilized country like the USA doesn’t have more of it. Although Cook County was the first place in the USA to use the system, Illinois doesn’t use it AFAIK. OK, the problem is that, rather than the parties having to prove ownership on a continuous chain, assuming the abscence of any un-noticed branches, in the Torrens system the state does it once, then guarantees title ever after. Conveyancing becumes trivial, but it doesn’t actually help in state-state disputes. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/39 "2013-04-07T10:38:20Z")
Sometime in the last decade, Virginia successfully sued for access to drinking water from the Potomac, despite the river being wholly owned by Maryland (and a little bit to DC). This could be a relevant precedent for Georgia. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605/40 "2013-04-07T12:52:40Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Sometime in the last decade, Virginia successfully sued for access to drinking water from the Potomac… Not highly relevant. Virginia territory borders the river for many miles, and agreements running back as far as 200 years gave Virginia specific rights to the river and its water (rights that had continuously been exercised). The Supreme Court merely ruled that these agreements were still in effect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-2013-georgia-wants-a-piece-of-tennessee/654605.md?page=1)