# "War Between the States" or "Civil War"?? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 28, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067 "2011-04-28T18:43:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/81 "2011-05-01T01:31:42Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > In the 1980’s a friend of mine (elementary school age) and his family moved from Michigan to North Carolina, and he got in trouble in class for correcting the teacher by telling her the North won after she gave a lesson claiming the South did. I don’t believe you either. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/82 "2011-05-01T01:53:58Z")
More charitably, either your friend was a liar, or the story got garbled somehow. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/83 "2011-05-01T09:27:41Z")
Both the north and the south won. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/84 "2011-05-23T12:35:13Z")
I just had occasion to research some Confederate pension applications dating from the 1880s to around 1900. The application forms do refer to the conflict as The War Between the States. But again, I never heard anybody get exercised about the nomenclature when I was growing up, except in a tongue-in-cheek way. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/85 "2011-05-23T14:52:32Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Neither, it should be either the Great Rebellion or the Southern Rebellion. Some southerners refer to it as the Second American Revolution. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/86 "2011-05-23T15:10:44Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > You mean the “War of Northern Aggression” now don’t you? 😉 The odd thing is that this is what it was called in my family even though we lived in the North and didn’t get here until like 1922. Never found out why. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/87 "2011-05-23T17:04:41Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > “Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason? Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.” Sir John Harrington > > “Treason is a matter of dates.” Talleyrand I believe the Constitution (Amendment XIV, of course) refers to it using terms such as “rebellion” and “insurrection.” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/88 "2011-05-24T00:01:34Z")
Never mind, already posted/ ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/89 "2011-05-24T23:10:18Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I don’t believe you either. I don’t give a fuck what you believe, I’m not a liar, and what I posted was not a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/90 "2011-05-24T23:30:20Z")
It can be entirely untrue without being a lie on your part. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/91 "2011-05-25T01:40:18Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I believe the Constitution (Amendment XIV, of course) refers to it using terms such as “rebellion” and “insurrection.” Come to think of it, I’ve seen 19th century war memorials (in the North) that refer to it as the “War of the Rebellion”. (Which probably wouldn’t be too popular amongst the die-hard pro-Confederates as yet another alternative to Civil War/War Between the States/the Late Unpleasantness/etc.) ETA: Which point I see was already made on page 1, but geez, that was almost a month ago. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/92 "2011-05-25T01:46:36Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Come to think of it, I’ve seen 19th century war memorials (in the North) that refer to it as the “War of the Rebellion”. (Which probably wouldn’t be too popular amongst the die-hard pro-Confederates as yet another alternative to Civil War/War Between the States/the Late Unpleasantness/etc.) > > ETA: Which point I see was already made on page 1, but geez, that was almost a month ago. A blogger I follow calls it “The Slaver’s Rebellion” ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/93 "2011-05-25T02:53:32Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Raised & educated in Texas. It’s always been The Civil War. > > \ This was my experience in Texas; I don’t remember it being called anything else. Not officially anyway. The Wiki article referenced in the second post of this thread refers to Juneteeth as a celebration of the day the war ended. It is actually a celebration of the Emancipation Proclamation, IIRC. Although I’ve heard Juneteenth actually celebrates the date that news of the Emancipation first reached Texas but I don’t have a cite for that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/94 "2011-05-25T02:55:30Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > In the 1980’s a friend of mine (elementary school age) and his family moved from Michigan to North Carolina, and he got in trouble in class for correcting the teacher by telling her the North won after she gave a lesson claiming the South did. I suppose this is true in a technical sense. The southern states are all now part of the United States again and the United States won the war. I don’t see, however, anyway you can spin it that the North _lost_. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/95 "2011-05-25T04:23:35Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > I don’t give a fuck what you believe, I’m not a liar, and what I posted was not a lie. No way in hell any teacher would believe or try to convince others that the South won the Civil War. The very idea is ludicrous. Your friend was either lying to you, or the story has been garbled in the retelling. That’s the problem with hearsay. (Perhaps there was a debate about whether the outcome of a particular battle was a Southern victory or a Northern victory? _That_ might be plausible.) ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/96 "2011-05-25T06:06:34Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I think a threshold question is, “do these programs accurately depcit Southern attitudes?” Was “War Between the States” actually a preferred locution, or just a Hollywood trope? I read through a magazine produced by the United Daughters of the Confederacy in the 1910s explaining why War Between the States was more accurate than Civil War. The reason why Southerners preferred the former rather than the latter was because they viewed the Confederacy as a nation independent nations. So the war wasn’t between the various states within the former union, the war in their view was between the Confederate States of America and the United States of America. The War Between the States. Anyone who believes it is the victors alone who write the history books is sadly mistaken. Thucydides, one of the west’s earliest historians, wrote one of the most compelling and comprehensive accounts of the Peloponnesian War we have and he was on the losing side. Mexican historians certainly cover La intervención norteamericana that began in 1846. So why wouldn’t the former Confederate states write their own histories as well? They did. And a big part of their interpretation of the past idealized the Confederacy, the institution of slavery and the reasons for secession. Part of referring to the war as the WBTS was an attempt to romanticize it. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/97 "2011-05-25T10:30:31Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > A blogger I follow calls it “The Slaver’s Rebellion” I’m pretty sure that more than one was involved. {runs away} ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/98 "2011-05-25T13:25:27Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > This was my experience in Texas; I don’t remember it being called anything else. Not officially anyway. > > The Wiki article referenced in the second post of this thread refers to Juneteeth as a celebration of the day the war ended. It is actually a celebration of the Emancipation Proclamation, IIRC. Although I’ve heard Juneteenth actually celebrates the date that news of the Emancipation first reached Texas but I don’t have a cite for that. Yes. From [The Handbook of Texas](http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/lkj01): > [@](#): > > On June 19 (“Juneteenth”), 1865, Union general Gordon Granger arrived in Galveston and issued General Order Number 3, which read in part, “The people of Texas are informed that, in accordance with a proclamation from the Executive of the United States, all slaves are free. This involves an absolute equality of personal rights and rights of property between former masters and slaves, and the connection heretofore existing between them becomes that between employer and hired labor.” > > The tidings of freedom reached the approximately 250,000 slaves in Texas gradually as individual plantation owners informed their bondsmen over the months following the end of the war. The news elicited an array of personal celebrations, some of which have been described in The Slave Narratives of Texas (1974). The first broader celebrations of Juneteenth were used as political rallies and to teach freed African American about their voting rights. Within a short time, however, Juneteenth was marked by festivities throughout the state, some of which were organized by official Juneteenth committees. The article goes on to explain how Juneteenth celebrations declined, then became popular once again. [This year’s celebration](http://milleroutdoortheatre.com/events/150/) at Miller Theater, in Hermann Park. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/99 "2011-05-25T23:46:23Z")
> [@A.Gwilliam](#): > > I’m pretty sure that more than one was involved. > > {runs away} D’oh - my typo, not his. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067/100 "2011-05-26T01:23:03Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > A blogger I follow calls it “The Slaver’s Rebellion” Around here we call it the Ptavv War. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-between-the-states-or-civil-war/580067.md?page=6)