# "War Crime" Question I Dare Anyone to Answer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139 "2012-01-11T06:24:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/41 "2012-01-11T21:26:22Z")
Go watch the video of Chris Hitchens going through waterboarding. It’s torture. It’s not even JUST about panic. You can’t breathe. You are literally drowning. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/42 "2012-01-11T22:35:32Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Waterboarding is not “dripping water down someone’s throat.” It’s a form of controlled drowning (and it is entirely possible to die.) Jesse Ventura, who endured the process during his military training, even admitted so in an interview with Larry King, and many others have agreed. > > Also, we needed to bomb Japan to end the war. When do we ever need to waterboard anyone? It’s been proven that it doesn’t result in useful information. So we waterboard our own troops as training? How bad could it really be? Oh that right, it can kill you. So who have we killed with waterboarding? We didn’t need to bomb Japan to end the war. We needed to bomb Japan to end the war on our terms rather than Russia’s terms. Of course waterboarding can result in good incformation. I can probably torture you to the point where you will tell me where your mother is hiding. The will to survive is pretty strong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/43 "2012-01-11T22:46:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So we waterboard our own troops as training? How bad could it really be? Oh that right, it can kill you. So who have we killed with waterboarding? > > We didn’t need to bomb Japan to end the war. We needed to bomb Japan to end the war on our terms rather than Russia’s terms. > > Of course waterboarding can result in good incformation. I can probably torture you to the point where you will tell me where your mother is hiding. The will to survive is pretty strong. You could waterboard me until I tell you my mother is Hitler, too. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/44 "2012-01-11T23:03:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So we waterboard our own troops as training? How bad could it really be? Oh that right, it can kill you. So who have we killed with waterboarding? I can’t tell if you’re being facetious or not, but yes, some soldiers and intelligence personnel (I don’t know which) go through waterboarding because they’re being trained to resist torture. We know that some prisoners have died in U.S. custody; I can’t say if any soldiers or captives have died because of waterboarding. I don’t think the government would be forthcoming with that information, but maybe someone else has a better cite. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/45 "2012-01-12T00:04:43Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Remember, all _previous_ American administrations _also_ considered it torture, including Republican ones. Even the Bush administration considered it torture – until they wanted to do it after 9/11. It’s not like Bush came into office and immediately instituted waterboarding. How would we know that George W. Bush’s administration considered it torture prior to them wanting to use it? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/46 "2012-01-12T01:24:13Z")
> [@firstfalseNero](#): > > Seems the opposite should be true, but then I’m wrong about everything. > [@Frostillicus](#): > > This. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > “This” to which part? What **Frostillicus** quoted and responded to was a single supposition, and one declaratory statement. You do the math. ETA: When doing the math, please take note of the fact that the thread title promises a question, which the OP does not deliver. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/47 "2012-01-12T02:36:42Z")
I have a very dear friend, now 87 YO, that served in the navy during WWII. Much of it was on destroyers in the Pacific when the Japanese were really sending out the Kamikases. He was a loader on the 40mm and 20mm guns, and is now almost completely deaf as the result of these Kamikaze attacks. He totally believes that dropping the atom bombs on Japan very likely allowed him to live to be 87, and not die at 20 as Japan fought to the death against the invaders. I rather expect that there are a lot of veterans of the Pacific War who have that same opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Paralogic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Paralogic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paralogic)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/48 "2012-01-12T02:39:02Z")
> [@firstfalseNero](#): > > Apparently it is a war crime to drip water down a prisoner’s throat (in the case of a certain U.S. facility located on Castro’s island, before returning him to his soccer practice). > But it was NOT a war crime to vaporize two entire cities filled with nothing but civilians days apart in 1945! > Seems the opposite should be true, but then I’m wrong about everything. It’s said that history is written by the winners. So is the dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/49 "2012-01-12T03:04:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > 1. Could you provide an example of a court deeming this [_waterboarding_] to be a “war crime?” Probably not, so who says it’s a war crime? Not “probabaly not,” but “actually so”: The U.S. in 1946, thus: > **[Yes, National Review, We Did Execute Japanese for Waterboarding](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/yes-inational-reviewi-we_b_191153)** > > It's kind of awkward to argue that waterboarding is not a crime when you hanged someone for doing it to our troops. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/50 "2012-01-12T03:52:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So we waterboard our own troops as training? How bad could it really be? Oh that right, it can kill you. So who have we killed with waterboarding? > > We didn’t need to bomb Japan to end the war. We needed to bomb Japan to end the war on our terms rather than Russia’s terms. Nonsense. Japan barely surrendered even with the a-bombs. The Russian invasion did not threaten the Home Islands unless the Soviets were to land in Hokkaido. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/51 "2012-01-12T04:26:34Z")
> [@Paralogic](#): > > It’s said that history is written by the winners. > > So is the dictionary. Cliches, too. ---
**Author:** ![Paralogic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Paralogic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paralogic)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/52 "2012-01-12T04:39:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Cliches, too. Any self respecting human being should be able to discern reality from propaganda. Don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/53 "2012-01-12T05:54:44Z")
> [@firstfalseNero](#): > > Seems the opposite should be true, but then I’m wrong about everything. Well, it looks like your streak is intact. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/54 "2012-01-12T06:01:47Z")
Only the losers of wars and a rare few to keep up appearances after a scandal are prosecuted for war crimes. A war of aggression is a war crime, it’s what we hanged the Nazis for (not for killing jews or anything like that, though some years later that has happened with captured Nazis in hiding), It’s also exactly what the US does whenever the hell it pleases. Iraq and Afghanistan are just the latest. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/55 "2012-01-12T07:03:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The OP (and several other posters) seem to be confused about what a crime is. It’s not just something that’s bad. It’s something that’s illegal. > > Torturing prisoners is against the generally accepted rules of war. Bombing cities is not. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, it is, if the intent is to deliberately target civilians. Aerial bombardment wasn’t addressed by [international law](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_bombardment_and_international_law#International_law_up_to_1945) at the time of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Hague conventions took effect in 1907. Needless to say aerial bombardment wasn’t predicted at that time. That being said there was a [case](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryuichi_Shimoda_et_al._v._The_State#Aerial_bombardment) brought against the Japanese government by survivors of the attacks. It seems as though they found the bombings illegal but the plaintiffs lost the suit. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/56 "2012-01-12T09:21:34Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Aerial bombardment wasn’t addressed by [international law](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_bombardment_and_international_law#International_law_up_to_1945) at the time of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Hague conventions took effect in 1907. Needless to say aerial bombardment wasn’t predicted at that time. Which pretty much explains why bombing cities wasn’t illegal. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/57 "2012-01-12T09:47:05Z")
You say “illegal” like international law is actual law, rather than … well, Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/58 "2012-01-12T17:38:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Which pretty much explains why bombing cities wasn’t illegal. I was providing context to the other quote. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/59 "2012-01-12T18:33:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You could waterboard me until I tell you my mother is Hitler, too. So what? Why would I believe you if you said that your mother was Hitler? I’d just cut off another finger and ask you once again, where your mother was hiding and you would tell me eventually. I think the ridiculous argument that people will admit to anything under torture so that somehow makes torture ineffective is stupid beyond belief. If I know you have information and I can verify that information then I WILL be able to get that information from you through torture, no ifs, ands or buts. > [@Marley23](#): > > I can’t tell if you’re being facetious or not, but yes, some soldiers and intelligence personnel (I don’t know which) go through waterboarding because they’re being trained to resist torture. We know that some prisoners have died in U.S. custody; I can’t say if any soldiers or captives have died because of waterboarding. I don’t think the government would be forthcoming with that information, but maybe someone else has a better cite. I have friends that were in MI that went through SERE training and you don’t drown people to death with waterboarding. Folks may have died in captivity but it wasn’t the waterboarding that killed them. Waterboarding simulates drowning but it doesn’t let enough water down your throat to actually drown you. > [@Daylate](#): > > I have a very dear friend, now 87 YO, that served in the navy during WWII. Much of it was on destroyers in the Pacific when the Japanese were really sending out the Kamikases. He was a loader on the 40mm and 20mm guns, and is now almost completely deaf as the result of these Kamikaze attacks. > > He totally believes that dropping the atom bombs on Japan very likely allowed him to live to be 87, and not die at 20 as Japan fought to the death against the invaders. > > I rather expect that there are a lot of veterans of the Pacific War who have that same opinion. Yeah, no doubt but killing sailors on a battleship is not generally considered a war crime. Dropping an atomic bomb on them is (especially the second time around when you know how bad it will be. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Nonsense. Japan barely surrendered even with the a-bombs. The Russian invasion did not threaten the Home Islands unless the Soviets were to land in Hokkaido. WTF are you talking about??? “While publicly stating their intent to fight on to the bitter end, Japan’s leaders at the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War (the “Big Six”) were privately making entreaties to the neutral Soviet Union, to mediate peace on terms favorable to the Japanese.” > **[Surrender of Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan)** > > The surrender of the Empire of Japan in World War II was announced by Emperor Hirohito on 15 August and formally signed on 2 September 1945, ending the war. By the end of July 1945, the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) was incapable of conducting major operations and an Allied invasion of Japan was imminent. Together with the United Kingdom and China, the United States called for the unconditional surrender of Japan in the Potsdam Declaration on 26 July 1945—the alternative being "prompt and utter... > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I was providing context to the other quote. I agree. A lot of what was considered war crimes was determined after the fact. If the Axis had somehow pulled out a Win after the bombings of Japan, do you really believe that they wouldn’t have been considered war crimes? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139/60 "2012-01-12T18:36:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, no doubt but killing sailors on a battleship is not generally considered a war crime. Dropping an atomic bomb on them is (especially the second time around when you know how bad it will be. That’s why they should’ve surrendered after the first one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-crime-question-i-dare-anyone-to-answer/609139.md?page=4)