# War is stupid and insane. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300 "2003-05-01T03:21:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/21 "2003-05-01T12:10:02Z")
For most of the 20th century the USA has been supporting and propping up ruthless dictators, including Saddam Hussein. Suddenly the USA has had an epiphany and seen the light and realized it’s task in the world is to be world policeman and remove ruthless dictators. Except that there are many other ruthless dictators and the USA is not going after them. The argument doesn’t hold water. The fact that some Americans believe it just shows that propaganda does wonders. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/22 "2003-05-01T12:14:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > Saddam isn’t a vicious bloodthirsty tyrant! He’s just misunderstood! \*\* Sung by Saddam Hussein: \*Gee, President Bushie, I’m very upset; I never had the love that ev’ry child oughta get. I’m not terroristic, I’m misunderstood. Deep down inside me there is good! \* ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/23 "2003-05-01T12:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Further, please point me towards any specific speech, either to the UN or the American public in general, where your beloved leader of free men, Mr Dubya, gave “the toppling of the Saddam regime” as his main reason for invading Iraq. See, you won’t be able to… [“America pledged to rid Iraq of an oppressive regime, and we kept our word.”](http://www.examiner.com/headlines/default.jsp?story=n.bushAP.0429w) Or have a look at Bush’s speech on Oct.7 of last year. Gee, a two second Google search isn’t all that difficult. And I’m sorry, **Susma** , but I can’t go thru your posts point by point to refute them. I can’t type and giggle very well at the same time. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/24 "2003-05-01T13:23:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*[“America pledged to rid Iraq of an oppressive regime, and we kept our word.”](http://www.examiner.com/headlines/default.jsp?story=n.bushAP.0429w) > > Or have a look at Bush’s speech on Oct.7 of last year. > > Gee, a two second Google search isn’t all that difficult. > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* Gee, perhaps you should have taken more than two second to read what I wrote; it wasn’t all that complicated. Note the date on link you’ve provided 04/29/2003 > [@](#): > > Further, please **point me towards any specific speech, either to the UN or the American public in general, where your beloved leader of free men, Mr Dubya, gave “the toppling of the Saddam regime” as his main reason for invading Iraq**. See, you won’t be able to… Obviously, a speech made _after_ the fact is not a justification for going in, is it? So there you go, “you still won’t be able to”…no matter how smug you might have felt after posting your reply. As for the “Oct 7th” speech, thanks for bringing it up…because guess what? It illustrates my point **perfectly** as it is all about the scaremongering tactics and thinly veiled inferences to the connections between Al Quada and Saddam that sold so many of you on this invasion. I am not surprised, are you? Here ya go. See for yourself: [President Bush Outlines Iraqi Threat](http://www.perspicacityonline.com/210/BushspeechonIraq21007.htm) > [@](#): > > We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas. Saddam Hussein also has experience in using chemical weapons. He has ordered chemical attacks on Iran, and on more than forty villages in his own country. These actions killed or injured at least 20,000 people, more than six times the number of people who died in the attacks of September the 11th. > > \ > > Iraq possesses ballistic missiles with a likely range of hundreds of miles – far enough to strike Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey, and other nations – in a region where more than 135,000 American civilians and service members live and work. We’ve also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We’re concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States. And, of course, sophisticated delivery systems aren’t required for a chemical or biological attack; all that might be required are a small container and one terrorist or Iraqi intelligence operative to deliver it. > > **And that is the source of our urgent concern about Saddam** (bolding mine) In fact, I’d urge everyone to read it again. It is a perfect example of the overblown propaganda campaign with little or no regard for truth that you’ve been swamped with from the start. Which is precisely what I am accusing this Administration of doing. And you’re right, it only took me two seconds to find it. Thanx. As for **smiling bandit’s** comment, I am satisfied with **sailor’s** reply to same. I’ll just add that if you believe that invading another country for its resources “justifies” this invasion, then you should have said as much when making the case to the UN. I doubt they would have given you a green light for that either, but at least it would have been _honest_. And that is exactly what’s been missing from the start: honesty. Read the speech if you have any doubts. And thank **Shodan** as well. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/25 "2003-05-01T13:44:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susma Rio Sep \* > \*\* > > To the second question, even though Saddam is a dictator, nonetheless I think he is a civilized person in the sense that he has regard for his wife or wives or the mothers of his children, for his own mother and father, he loves his children, he maintains a home and heads a family, as compared to uncivilized ones who don’t have any such sentiments. > > A dictator with such sentiments is susceptible to reasons designed to convince him to no longer do harms to his own people and not certainly to the American people. > > Too idealistic? \*\* One of Saddams son is such a prolifent serial rapist/murder that he makes ted bundy look good by comparison. Saddam supposedly tried to have him killed in 1996 (i’m not sure if Saddam was behind Uday’s assassination though). I think one of his daughters is in jail for marrying a guy who defected. heres some info from one of his supposed mistresses who defected [http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2002/msg01361.html](http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2002/msg01361.html) Besides, the world tried reasoning with Saddam in 1990 when he invaded Kuwait. 11 security council resolution telling Iraq to leave Kuwait and he wouldn’t do it. In regards to assassinating Hussein, like you mentioned earlier, assassinating a leader while not in a time of war is a violation of international law. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/26 "2003-05-01T13:56:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*For most of the 20th century the USA has been supporting and propping up ruthless dictators, including Saddam Hussein. Suddenly the USA has had an epiphany and seen the light and realized it’s task in the world is to be world policeman and remove ruthless dictators. Except that there are many other ruthless dictators and the USA is not going after them. The argument doesn’t hold water. The fact that some Americans believe it just shows that propaganda does wonders. \*\* No we are not ‘going’ after them, but chances are the US has applied some economic & diplomatic pressures on them to enforce reform. I admit the US does evil as well as good, but to say that the US is incapable of doing anything benevolent (as you seem to be saying) is untrue. In the last decade the US has overthrown at least 5 dictatorial regimes. Panama, Grenada, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yugoslavia. Besides, ‘liberating’ people is one of the oldest propaganda tricks in the book when it comes to gaining support for a war. I think even Mussolini, Hitler and Hirohito used the idea of liberation for their invasions of Ethiopia, Chezkoslovakia & China. But, unlike those instances, the iraqi people probably will end up with a better life in this war, so whats the problem? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/27 "2003-05-01T14:17:22Z")
> [@](#): > > But, unlike those instances, the iraqi people probably will end up with a better life in this war, so whats the problem? I’m curious, what do you base your optimism for the future of the Iraqi people on? Last I checked, the US’s past nation-building efforts are spotty at best. And I am being generous because I really can’t come up with anything past WW-2. Never mind that post-war Germany and Japan had nothing in common with current Iraq. Then again, if you don’t see “the problem” in ignoring laws and treaties your country signed and agreed to, in order to invade a sovereign country based on lies and distortions, I imagine you don’t see “problems” in much of anything. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/28 "2003-05-01T14:26:20Z")
PS-In fact, one of those “two second” Google searches **Shodan** seems so fond of, reveals all kinds of daunting problems in your latest ‘forgotten’ attempt, Afghanistan. See for yourself [Afghanistan today](http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=Afghanistan+killed&btnG=Search+News) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/29 "2003-05-01T14:36:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susma Rio Sep \* > To the first question, may I propose that we do not one-sidedly exaggerate his brutalization of his own people? No. Sadams brutalizations are documented facts, not exagerations. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susma Rio Sep \* > At least – of course correct me if I am wrong – Saddam has his good points and has done good for his people. Hitler also did good things for Germany. That is hardly the point. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susma Rio Sep \* > If anything, women in Iraq would seem to have the best deal there from Saddam; he is a pioneer of women’s equality among Muslim societies in the Middle East. You are going to have to provide a site for such a claim. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susma Rio Sep \* > Remove him, of course, but without the kind of war waged by Bush and company. > > I think we should try other alternatives first before resorting to war. Yes…I’m asking you what alternatives you are recommending. Twelve years of sanctions did not work. Simply assassinating him is a lot more dificult than you might think and there is no garantee that someone worse won’t take his place or the country wouldn’t decend into permenant anarchy. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susma Rio Sep \* > To the second question, even though Saddam is a dictator, nonetheless I think he is a civilized person in the sense that he has regard for his wife or wives or the mothers of his children, for his own mother and father, he loves his children, he maintains a home and heads a family, as compared to uncivilized ones who don’t have any such sentiments. He certainly didn’t share such sentiments for his son in laws. (who he executed for leaving the country) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susma Rio Sep \* > Too idealistic? Yes. You are living in a fantasy world. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > Trust you won’t mind if I take a stab at the above for I find the inherent irony too delicious to pass up. > > Would you not agree that the best way to avoid having to topple dictators by any means is not propping them up in the first place? > > … You didn’t answer either of my questions. You simply went into the usual tirade of “America is a hypocrite”, “Americans don’t care” etc. For the purpose of my simple yes/no question, how the dictator came to power is not the issue. You stated that you believe that we should not prop up dictators in the first place and I agree. Do you also believe that our foreign policy should be to not deal with dictators at all? Do you think we should execute policy that encourages the removal of dictators through non-violent means? At what point is the use of force acceptible? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/30 "2003-05-01T14:54:31Z")
> [@](#): > > You didn’t answer either of my questions. Oh but I most surely did. Namely that if you want to remain _conistent_ with your current actions, you should already be planning your _next_ invasion. If not, this is clearly a self-serving and hypocritical act – as the others I mentioned, when you _installed_ dictators. Hope that helps 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Payne\_N.Diaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Payne\_N.Diaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Payne_N.Diaz)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/31 "2003-05-01T14:55:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susma Rio Sep \* > \*\*To Payne N. Diaz: > Thanks for your inputs. > > Still, look at the bright side. > > Correct me if I am mistaken. > > The fall of communism, is it due to U.S. winning the arms race or infiltration of U.S. lifestyle into the consciousness of peoples under communist regimes? > > Susma Rio Sep \*\* You are mistaken. The Communist world was rotten to the core with oppression, corruption, and general ineffiency. While the onslaught of Western media no doubt helped, remember that the media was tightly controlled in those countries. Besides, it still took 70 years for Communism to fall–how much time were you willing to give Saddam? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/32 "2003-05-01T14:57:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > \*\*I’m curious, what do you base your optimism for the future of the Iraqi people on? Last I checked, the US’s past nation-building efforts are spotty at best. And I am being generous because I really can’t come up with anything past WW-2. Never mind that post-war Germany and Japan had nothing in common with current Iraq. _Nothing_ in common? Hogwash. All three nations are technologically advanced (Japan in 1945 was somewhat further behind the ciurve than Iraq in 2003) and have a large pool of educated workers. The key element is how long the Americans were willing to stick around, ideally long enough to establish a stable local democracy. It took German and Japan a generation of occupation, it will take Iraq a similar amount. I just hope the Americans are willing to put in the time and effort, because _that_ will ensure a better future for the Iraqi people, as well as a safer world for everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/33 "2003-05-01T15:02:23Z")
All this anti-American tirade makes you wonder, can the US, in the eyes of some of the posters here do any good at all? There were of course a reasonable number of other countries who joined in and helped with the removal of the baathist regime. Not least the UK and Australia, but also a substantial number of other countries as well. By the logic of not removing Hussein, should I then not call the police or, if needed, take action myself against the wife-beater next door? After all, why should her screams bother me. That may seem a little stretched, and I hope that no-one here would provide actual moral support to the Baathists, but I have yet to see a single viable alternative to the war. I have seen many many arguments about various issues, but still no alternative methods for the removal of this regime. As to other dictators around the world, well yes, I believe there is just cause for the removal of them. Self-determination is a meaningless concept in the context of a dictatorship. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/34 "2003-05-01T15:35:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > \*\*Gee, perhaps you should have taken more than two second to read what I wrote; it wasn’t all that complicated. Note the date on link you’ve provided 04/29/2003 > > Obviously, a speech made _after_ the fact is not a justification for going in, is it? So there you go, “you still won’t be able to”…no matter how smug you might have felt after posting your reply. \*\* Well, **Red** , you ask for a speech where Bush mentions that our purpose in invading Iraq was regime change. Then I provide a cite, where Bush said so, and you don’t like it because it happened a day and a half ago. So you and I both make reference to a speech delivered some months ago, well before the fact, in which Bush says things like: > [@](#): > > America is a friend to the people of Iraq. Our demands are directed only at the regime that enslaves them and threatens us. and you don’t like that one either. Bush has been saying that regime change in Iraq is the goal of the invasion from the get-go. Let’s not pretend otherwise. He said it before the invasion, he said it during the invasion, he is saying today. Perhaps you object because Bush also said things like: > [@](#): > > …the first and greatest benefit will come to Iraqi men, women and children. The oppression of Kurds, Assyrians, Turkomans, Shi’a, Sunnis and others will be lifted. The long captivity of Iraq will end, and an era of new hope will begin. Actually, another part you may not care for is: > [@](#): > > And that is the source of our urgent concern about Saddam Hussein’s links to international terrorist groups. Over the years, Iraq has provided safe haven to terrorists such as Abu Nidal, whose terror organization carried out more than 90 terrorist attacks in 20 countries that killed or injured nearly 900 people, including 12 Americans. Iraq has also provided safe haven to Abu Abbas, who was responsible for seizing the Achille Lauro and killing an American passenger. And we know that Iraq is continuing to finance terror and gives assistance to groups that use terrorism to undermine Middle East peace. All of which, unsurprisingly, turns out to be quite true. [Cite.](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/16/iraq/main549591.shtml) [Cite.](http://english.aljazeera.net/topics/article.asp?cu_no=1&item_no=2727&version=1&template_id=277&parent_id=258) [Cite.](http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=288072&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > \*\* > Read the speech if you have any doubts. And thank **Shodan** as well. \*\* You’re welcome. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/35 "2003-05-01T15:37:18Z")
**Brian** , for the sake of argument I won’t mention the obvious. That Japan and Germany were throughly industrialized nations with a deep-rooted sense of national pride and quite capable of working united under a central Goverment. Nope, I won’t mention any of that, but since I am still interested in my original query, I’ll ask again: what successful nation-building examples can you give me _since_, so I can be as optimistic as all you flag-waving Americans? Of course, getting me to believe that you invaded Iraq for purely altruistic reasons is still going to take some doing. Or was it WMDs? Ties to Al Quada? Regime change? World safety? That’s it!.. isn’t it? Hard to keep track of these things, guess it depends on what day you read the papers or listen to your Resident. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/36 "2003-05-01T15:42:09Z")
**Shodan** if, after reading the overall tenor of that speech, replete with lies and distortions, you still hold on to the myth that Bush went in for the sake of the Iraqi people, I have nothing else to say to you. Other than…well done Dubya, you’ve got yourself another great unquestioning soldier! All the best. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/37 "2003-05-01T16:33:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Brian, for the sake of argument I won’t mention the obvious. That Japan and Germany were throughly industrialized nations with a deep-rooted sense of national pride and quite capable of working united under a central Goverment. Iraq was the jewel of the Middle East within the memory of the baby boomers. It did have a stable central government for some time after WWII. They most defintely had a sense of pride. perhaps not in being Iraqis yet, but give them time. They are probably still the best educated in the region aside from Israel and the useless “glitter” degrees of Saudi Arabia. > [@](#): > > Nope, I won’t mention any of that, but since I am still interested in my original query, I’ll ask again: what successful nation-building examples can you give me since, so I can be as optimistic as all you flag-waving Americans? The US doesn’t intend to build a nation. We cannot and never have. What we intend to do is give them the space and room they need to recover and heal. They have everything they need, and they’ll be getting thier own Marshall Plan to help. We won’t, at first, let them have absolute sovereignty so that some new factional power gains totl control, but with time they would appear to be the best prospect for establishing a new order in the Middle East. > [@](#): > > Of course, getting me to believe that you invaded Iraq for purely altruistic reasons is still going to take some doing. Or was it WMDs? Ties to Al Quada? Regime change? World safety? That’s it!.. isn’t it? I don’t believe any conservatives stated there was but one goal in our invasion. In fact, just the opposite; I believe that there were dozens of goals, and some of them will not see fruit for years. In fact, everything you have mentioend, included altruism, was a factor. > [@](#): > > Hard to keep track of these things, guess it depends on what day you read the papers or listen to your Resident. Perhaps I merely being one of those foolish free-thinker who doesn’t follow you around, but I don’t believe any of those goals conflict. The truth is that everything noble and good in humanity benefits by our destruction of the Baathist regime. > [@](#): > > Shodan if, after reading the overall tenor of that speech, replete with lies and distortions, you still hold on to the myth that Bush went in for the sake of the Iraqi people, I have nothing else to say to you. Aside from the base insult that assumes that we are not wise enough to choose intelligently and differently from yourself, I submit that you have yet to prove your case on any point. You sir, have no honor. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/38 "2003-05-01T16:40:17Z")
I don’t think that the Iraq war was about regime change or the oil for Bush and his merry band. It was about having to DO something to placate the American people post 9/11. Hardly alturism at its finest, it was done for Political reason. As opposed to France, Germany and Russia’s reasons for opposing the war…that was about the money. So, who has the high moral ground here?? lol America is not perfect, as anyone living here will tell you, but you can get off YOUR soap box RedFury. Want to get into a large list of dictators that Europe supported (hell, and home grew)? Its called practical politics…and EVERY country does it. Make a new post and we can debate relative history of America vs Europe (or any other power). Europeans seem great on casting bricks at our glass house, while avoiding looking at their own… Getting back to the OP, such as it is, I’d say that sometimes war is a good thing, sometimes its a bad thing. As with all life, it just depends. The Iraq war is/was a good war done for all the wrong reasons. It was (IMHO) a POLITICAL war, waged for political reasons, and I feel quite confident that Bush and company will be a one time administration. Gods only know what we will get next. -XT ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/39 "2003-05-01T17:31:59Z")
If a stupid insane person attacks you, do you let them kill you? One of the great ironies of the 20th century was Einstein, who had been a pacifist, sighing a letter to encourage FDR to develop the atomic bomb. Individuals like Adolf Hitler can change your thinking. Dal Timgar ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300/40 "2003-05-01T21:15:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > **Brian** , for the sake of argument I won’t mention the obvious. That Japan and Germany were throughly industrialized nations with a deep-rooted sense of national pride and quite capable of working united under a central Goverment. Well, **smiling bandit** was already kind enough to point out how **stupid** your counterargument is, so I’ll just throw in the fact that while Germany _had been_ a thoroughly industrialized nation before and during the war, in the spring of 1945 they had gotten the crap bombed out of them, along with millions of their young men having been killed on the eastern front. With modern precision munitions and relatively light casualties, Iraq’s industrial capability is _far_ more intact than Germany’s was in 1945, though the Saddam regime and the sanctions hurt it quite a bit. Rebuilding Iraq into a stable democracy will be hugely expensive, requiring some variant on the Marshall Plan, as bandit pointed out. Fortunately, the huge oil wealth of the nation could be directed to this end. As for working under a central government, that’s exactly what the Iraqis have had for decades. Hopefully, the Americans will be able to help establish a central government that is: [ul][li]Elected[/li][li]Civilized (i.e. torture and rape kept to a minimum)[/li][li]Responsible, and[/li][li]Won’t roll over to the first strongman coup that comes along.[/li][/ul] > [@](#): > > What successful nation-building examples can you give me _since_, so I can be as optimistic as all you flag-waving Americans? I’m Canadian, but that’s okay. I understand we all look alike to you. You don’t want to count Germany _or_ Japan as successful examples of nation-building? Well, then I’ll just as arbitrarily dismiss any _negative_ examples you can mention and the argument becomes a tie. > [@](#): > > Of course, getting me to believe that you invaded Iraq for purely altruistic reasons is still going to take some doing. Or was it WMDs? Ties to Al Quada? Regime change? World safety? That’s it!.. isn’t it? Purely altruistic? I doubt even many Americans believe _that_. The Americans acted in large part to increase their own security. If you want to call that “evil”, so be it, but regime change **all by itself** was worthwhile goal, even if it wasn’t the only goal in mind. > [@](#): > > Hard to keep track of these things, guess it depends on what day you read the papers or listen to your Resident. Hey, he ain’t **my** “Resident.” Were I American, I would have voted for the other guy to be “Resident” but in any case I happen to agree with the actions taken by this “Resident” and only wish the invasion had happened two “Residents” ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-is-stupid-and-insane/172300.md?page=3)