# War on Christmas = cultural appropriation? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2021, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938 "2021-01-07T17:32:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/21 "2021-01-07T20:09:26Z")
Yes, Christians did it. Not non-Christians as the OP suggests. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/22 "2021-01-07T20:20:10Z")
I’m assuming not being religious does not preclude one from having religion as part of one’s culture. > [@Kimstu](#): > > “hey these bizarre exotic customs look like fun, let’s have a late-night party on Dec. 24 and call it ‘midnight Mass’, and let’s have ‘nativity’ costume parties with ‘sexy Mary’ and ‘sexy angel’ and ‘sexy camel’ costumes, whee!!” While I’m a shoe-in for all of the above, I’m assuming they’re taken already, so I call dibs on ‘sexy wise man’. I am so tired of being a ‘sexy shepherd’, and I am _not_ being the ‘sexy sheep’ again; some of y’all were way too into that. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/23 "2021-01-07T20:23:24Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What do you mean by cultural descendants of pagans? Presumably the growing population of people who consider themselves [Pagans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Paganism) today. It’s not the same religion as the early Pagans celebrated, but it shares many aspects. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/24 "2021-01-07T20:27:46Z")
Uh, folks, I was not intending my humorous hypothetical about cultural appropriation to inspire a [literal reinvention of the Black Mass](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Mass#Origins_and_history_of_the_Black_Mass). Let’s all just back away slowly and forget I mentioned it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/25 "2021-01-07T20:35:38Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > What do you mean by cultural descendants of pagans? > > Presumably the growing population of people who consider themselves [Pagans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Paganism) today. It’s not the same religion as the early Pagans celebrated, but it shares many aspects. Naw, I meant all the people born into cultures that have had “Christmas trees” and “Christmas candles/lights” and “Christmas presents” and “Christmas dinners” since before those cultures were converted to Christianity. That’s most Americans and most Europeans. Just because Christianity co-opted those mid-winter customs doesn’t mean there hasn’t been continuous cultural practices of those customs by people who may or may not have actually been religious. Every culture has its not-so-religious members, as well as its true believers. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/26 "2021-01-07T21:33:44Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I can only speak for myself. As a white American Zen Buddhist I can say my thoughts about this are pretty nuanced. I treasure the influence of one culture upon others. I think the difference is when that culture is exploited for monetary gain or social capital, particularly if the culture being appropriated from has been shut out of opportunities for progress. But even then, it’s a case-by-case judgment call, and I would rather just get on with creating a system that offers the exploited culture more opportunities rather than fixating on the appropriation. This 100%. (Bring back the “Like” button.) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/27 "2021-01-07T21:53:55Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > I’m surprised to hear you say that. I thought it was always considered a bad thing by those who invented and use the term. > > I can only speak for myself. As a white American Zen Buddhist I can say my thoughts about this are pretty nuanced. I treasure the influence of one culture upon others. I think the difference is when that culture is exploited for monetary gain or social capital, particularly if the culture being appropriated from has been shut out of opportunities for progress. But even then, it’s a case-by-case judgment call, and I would rather just get on with creating a system that offers the exploited culture more opportunities rather than fixating on the appropriation. I think a lot of cultural appropriation is good. I love Chinese food. My people have appropriated that. Or take a prominent example: Elvis appropriated black music, and made a ton of money doing that. Money that Black artists weren’t making. But… He didn’t replace the Black musicians, he grew their market. And white people got more music from which to choose. Win/win/win. (Elvis/Black musicians/White audiences) I think cultural appropriation is bad when it’s done in a way that shuts out the opportunities for the cultural underclass. Or when it treats a disempowered culture with disrespect. “Your god would look cute holding my toilet paper roll.” But in a large fraction of cases, “cultural appropriation” is the spreading of good ideas from one group to another, and that can make us all richer. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/28 "2021-01-07T21:55:32Z")
That being said, the “war on Christmas”, whatever it might be, isn’t cultural appropriation. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/29 "2021-01-08T00:00:23Z")
Here’s a brief BBC video about the War On Christmas, waged by the Christian Church in the 1600’s. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/30 "2021-01-08T01:42:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > War on Christmas = Strawman attack to bolster Christian political/social power So I can stop wearing camo in December ¿ ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/31 "2021-01-08T02:03:33Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > That being said, the “war on Christmas”, whatever it might be, isn’t cultural appropriation. Actually, we do know exactly what it is. It’s pure fact-free disinformation spread by Xian zealots. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/32 "2021-01-08T04:03:31Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > ere’s a brief BBC video about the War On Christmas, waged by the Christian Church in the 1600’s. I seem to have lost the URL. [How ‘cancelling’ Christmas reignited a civil war - BBC Reel](https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p091np52/how-cancelling-christmas-reignited-a-civil-war) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/33 "2021-01-08T14:15:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Uh, folks, I was not intending my humorous hypothetical about cultural appropriation to inspire a [literal reinvention of the Black Mass](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Mass#Origins_and_history_of_the_Black_Mass). Let’s all just back away slowly and forget I mentioned it. Aww… \ ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/34 "2021-01-08T14:18:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > War on Christmas = Strawman attack to bolster Christian political/social power. Amen! ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/35 "2021-01-08T14:30:43Z")
Exactly. We have a Christmas tree because our pagan ancestors had a Christmas tree. And a Midwinter festival. Then our ancestors became Christian and kept the midwinter festival and decorating with evergreens, etc. (depending on where you came from) and threw Baby Jesus in the middle of it (although God only knows when Jesus was actually born - or if such a person actually existed historically). Many of our ancestors became Christian because they didn’t have a choice. Some of them then became Protestant - again, many because they didn’t have a choice. Then some people started having choices about their faith again, and some of them chose not to be Christian at all, becoming agnostics or atheists or Buddhists or Scientologists. The midwinter festival where you decorate with evergreens has stayed fairly consistent throughout for Northern Europeans - unless they purposefully reject it. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/36 "2021-01-08T14:36:45Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > We have a Christmas tree because our pagan ancestors had a Christmas tree. We were told Prince Albert brought the Christmas tree over from Germany. Maybe the Yule log is a Pagan custom. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/37 "2021-01-08T14:52:48Z")
Both are pagan customs. Christmas trees come from the part of the world now known as Germany. Yule logs come from the British Isles. Evidence for each predates Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/38 "2021-01-08T16:57:44Z")
I come from a country that has celebrated some form of Christmas/Yuletide/Winter Solstice/Call it whatever you like for at least, and probably a lot longer than, 2000 years. I also come from a country where the majority tick ‘non-religious’ on the census, but where our major public bank holidays are built around Christian festivals - Christmas, Easter, Whitsun. We are literally forced to take time off at these times. Our habits and practices around the Christmas period are a massive mash up of Christian and Pagan practices - decorating houses with holly, gift giving, kissing under mistletoe, eating mince pies. The Christmas festival is an integral part of My Culture. If anyone’s committed cultural appropriation, it’s not us. Christians don’t own Christmas (insert whatever other name you choose). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/39 "2021-01-08T20:35:05Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Non-Christians have appropriated an important Christian festival Paganization and secularization _made_ Christmas important. In the early Church, Easter was way more important, and even for the “Christmas” period, Epiphany was more important. It was only hundreds of years later that Christmas was celebrated at all. This is in addition to what people have already said, that it wasn’t non-Christians who secularized Christmas. It was the overwhelmingly Christian society of the time that did that itself. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2021, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938/40 "2021-01-08T21:04:29Z")
Can we all just agree on the FACT that not everybody who celebrates Christmas is a Christian and not every Christian celebrates Christmas? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-cultural-appropriation/929938.md?page=3)