# War on Christmas - revisited **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205 "2006-01-30T15:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/261 "2006-02-05T15:38:05Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > The Christians decrying this war against them need to look at their own actions! … These Christians are using the same techniques against others as are (supposedly) being used against them. Again, hypocracy! I think we’re all familiar enough with the news to realize how Christian organizations are often behind legislation that either removes legal protections for the GLBT community or seeks to penalize them. In the private sphere, they run the gamut of portraying homosexuals and homosexuality as either “wrong” or “bad” to outright demonization and harassment. > > If these Christians want to claim that there’s some “war” against them, that’s fine. But they certainly need to look at their own actions before they cast stones at others. It’s part and parcel of their usual line. They can (and have) influenced politics and law making to discriminate against others. The more disgusting among them called for violence against anyone who doesn’t knuckle under. On the other hand, any time someone tells them to stop, they play the victim. In this case (Christmas) there is no war and never has been. They made it up to stir the pot and cast themselves as victims. Hypocrite is a good word for them. Liar is an even better word. These “christians” invented the war on Christmas. Then they lied and made up stories to back up their empty assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/262 "2006-02-06T15:06:00Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > (1) Is there actually more of a push to keep the religious aspects of Christmas out of the public sphere now than in the past, or is just more visible? Yes, there is more of an actual push now than in the past. > [@](#): > > (1a) If there is more of a push now than in the past, is it in proportion to the general increase in secularity and diversity in society? It may well be. > [@](#): > > (2) Is the number of lawsuits filed against schools and similar institutions concerning Christmas significant, compared to the number filed concerning any-old-random-topic? No. But I contend that the number of actual lawsuits PLUS the number of _threatened_ lawsuits is significant. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/263 "2006-02-06T15:10:23Z")
> [@MaxtheVool](#): > > (3) Is there a slope here, slippery or otherwise? What is the ideal, dreamed-of end goal of whoever is attacking Christmas? I think there are a mix of goals. Some people who celebrate Christmas themselves promulgate unncessarily restrictive regulations; their goal is to avoid litigation or threats thereof. Some people are simply interested in promoting a more diverse spirit during the winter months. Some are angry atheists who want to attack the trappings of religion in society. > [@](#): > > (4) We’ve all heard about the “offenderati” being offended by being told “Merry Christmas” at the mall. But has that ever happened, at least in enough numbers (or backed up by enough lawsuits) to even be on the radar? Well, I think that the anecdotal aspect of the offenderati is enough to move at least some stores. In other words, the mere story, in the current climate, is sufficient to nudge policies or informal guidance. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/264 "2006-02-06T15:38:57Z")
> [@](#): > > (5) To the extent that there is some “attacking” pressure, is it RIGHT? Is it in fact more American and more constitutional to not allow specifically religious icons on public property like schools and city halls? Where should the line be drawn? That’s a fair question, and worth exploring on its own. I started this thread to contend that there WAS such a pressure, and that it was fair to call it, in aggregate, a war on Christmas. I’ve since been persuaded that the phrase is NOT, in fact, a useful one. I still contend that the phenomenon exists. Whether it’s a right, good, laudable direction for us to take is secondary to my point in this thread. > [@](#): > > Oh, and a cite about that Illinois thing. [Cite 1.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1660576,00.html) [Cite 2](http://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=36&url_article_id=11302&url_subchannel_id=&change_well_id=2) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/265 "2006-02-06T15:42:52Z")
> [@](#): > > (5) To the extent that there is some “attacking” pressure, is it RIGHT? Is it in fact more American and more constitutional to not allow specifically religious icons on public property like schools and city halls? Where should the line be drawn? That’s a fair question, and worth exploring on its own. I started this thread to contend that there WAS such a pressure, and that it was fair to call it, in aggregate, a war on Christmas. I’ve since been persuaded that the phrase is NOT, in fact, a useful one. I still contend that the phenomenon exists. Whether it’s a right, good, laudable direction for us to take is secondary to my point in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/266 "2006-02-06T15:52:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, and a cite about that Illinois thing. [Cite 1.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1660576,00.html) [Cite 2](http://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=36&url_article_id=11302&url_subchannel_id=&change_well_id=2) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/267 "2006-02-06T15:53:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [Cite 1.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1660576,00.html) > > [Cite 2](http://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=36&url_article_id=11302&url_subchannel_id=&change_well_id=2) Those cites are both to opinion pieces that are pretty clearly drawing from other opinion pieces. I’d be interested in seeing a cite that’s closer to the source and has details about what employees were forbidden from saying Merry Christmas, by whom, and under what circumstances. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/268 "2006-02-06T15:59:21Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > After some of **Bricker’s** comments, I can’t help but smell some very rank hypocracy going on here. He says there is an on-going effort to eliminate the religious meaning of Christmas from the winter holiday celebrations with the implication of an effort to elimiate Christianity from the public sphere. How can such a statement possibly be hypocritical? > [@](#): > > The Christians decrying this war against them need to look at their own actions! The collective Christian community has declared war on others, specifically the GLBT community. This war (either guerilla or standard warfare) has been conducted in both the private and public sphere influencing both private opinion and public policy. These Christians are using the same techniques against others as are (supposedly) being used against them. Again, hypocracy! I don’t think you know what hypocrisy is - or you’re not talking about me. I’m simply claiming that these actions exist. I don’t believe it is even possible for such a claim to be hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/269 "2006-02-06T16:01:11Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Those cites are both to opinion pieces that are pretty clearly drawing from other opinion pieces. I’d be interested in seeing a cite that’s closer to the source and has details about what employees were forbidden from saying Merry Christmas, by whom, and under what circumstances. > > Daniel That’s a fair request. It was from those sources, though, that I drew the information. I am perfectly willing to withdraw it pending a better cite. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/270 "2006-02-06T16:10:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s a fair request. It was from those sources, though, that I drew the information. I am perfectly willing to withdraw it pending a better cite. So, what is your argument based on, now? It appears that your factual bases keep disappearing. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/271 "2006-02-06T16:15:22Z")
Bricker, From your 2nd cite: > [@Clay Cox - R -Lilburn](#): > > No student or government employee should have to leave their free speech rights at the school house or office door when it comes to their religious beliefs just to placate others. So, with the understanding that saying “Merry Christmas” is an acknowledgement of a religious belief, would you hold it to be a push against religious beliefs if a state employee was prevented from answering the phone, “Good morning! Thank you for calling the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles - Driver’s License Division. Have you accepted Christ as your personal savior?” If that’s unacceptable, but “Merry Christmas” is, in your view, where do we draw the line? I’d also still like an answer to my question in post #36. If government entities insist on endorsing religion in official practices, what choice do opponents have other than to litigate or threaten to litigate? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/272 "2006-02-06T16:15:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s a fair question, and worth exploring on its own. I started this thread to contend that there WAS such a pressure, and that it was fair to call it, in aggregate, a war on Christmas. I’ve since been persuaded that the phrase is NOT, in fact, a useful one. I still contend that the phenomenon exists. Whether it’s a right, good, laudable direction for us to take is secondary to my point in this thread. So, is this whole thread about whether some people somewhere want to remove or limit the celebration of Christmas in the public sphere, with “public sphere” including government run agencies likes schools, libraries, courthouses, etc.? If so, I don’t think anyone is going to disagree with you. Of course there are people trying to do this. To the extent that there is any debate about this subject, it concerns the celebration of Christmas in the “private sphere”-- shopping malls, department stores and the like. Is it your contention that there is some effort to limit the celebration of Christmas in that “private” part of the “public sphere”? That seems to be where all the controversy is arising from. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/273 "2006-02-06T16:24:52Z")
If you wanted to discuss the presence of a “war”, or whatever term you’d now propose instead (you do have one, don’t you?\_, how the hell could you expect to avoid discussing the motivations for it? :dubious: You cannot simply admit something is a “fair question, worth exploring” unless you’re in fact willing to explore it, even at the risk of finding your position to be in the wrong. You could begin to do so with a even the briefest answer to the question of whether or not you support the Constitution’s separation of church and state. At least you’ll never again complain about anyone else’s refusal to admit being shown wrong, I trust. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/274 "2006-02-06T16:45:09Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, what is your argument based on, now? It appears that your factual bases keep disappearing. Well, that _one_ certainly is on hold. The Plano school district incident appears to have survived. The Bartlett Public Library’s ban of Mary, Joseph, and baby figurines from their Nativity scene is still in play. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/275 "2006-02-06T16:51:49Z")
Welcome back, **Bricker**. What is your response to [post #155](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7053545&postcount=155)? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/276 "2006-02-06T16:54:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The Plano school district incident appears to have survived. It’s only survived in the sense that you left town for the weekend. [We left the conversation regarding this incident here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7054591&postcount=202). Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/277 "2006-02-06T16:59:58Z")
> [@](#): > > The Plano school district incident appears to have survived. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/278 "2006-02-06T17:03:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The Bartlett Public Library’s ban of Mary, Joseph, and baby figurines from their Nativity scene is still in play. Do you mean the [Memphis-Shelby County Library’s decision](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7052800&postcount=82) you mentioned in post #82? You didn’t develop that argument or provide any cites. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/279 "2006-02-06T17:12:39Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > …"… Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles - Driver’s License Division. Have you accepted Christ as your personal savior?" I would agree that your example is unacceptable. The official federal holiday is called “Christmas.” I believe merely saying the words, “Merry Christmas” do not amount to an endorsement of religion as that phrase is used in the law. > [@](#): > > I’d also still like an answer to my question in post #36. If government entities insist on endorsing religion in official practices, what choice do opponents have other than to litigate or threaten to litigate? If someone threatens to lititgate on the use of “Merry Christmas,” this is PRECISELY what I’m talking about. The law permits “Merry Christmas,” even from a government official. But the threat of litigation and its attendant expense can cause an overly cautious administrator to back down. That’s an inappropriate tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/280 "2006-02-06T17:15:36Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > It’s only survived in the sense that you left town for the weekend. [We left the conversation regarding this incident here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7054591&postcount=202). > > Daniel So we did. I have an e-mail in to the attorney who represented the parents, requesting a scan of the letter. My understanding is that it’s a letter from the principal outling the school policy. That should solve this issue nicely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205.md?page=15)