# War on Christmas - revisited **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205 "2006-01-30T15:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/441 "2006-02-08T17:06:37Z")
I don’t see any reason why you should be embarassed. Unless you bump it. 🙂 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/442 "2006-02-08T17:36:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Am I the only Doper who is embarrassed by the longevity of this stupid nonthread?! I waffle between embarrassment and amusement. Who knew that a holiday tree could destroy a Christian’s sacred celebration of their holy day? If I wanted to attack Christians, to hurt and wound and scar them terribly, I just have to have white napkins at a party and they’ll cry. It’s empowering. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/443 "2006-02-08T17:53:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Am I the only Doper who is embarrassed by the longevity of this stupid nonthread?! Thanks for adding to it. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/444 "2006-02-08T18:17:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think the Plano letter, when (if) I get it, will settle the issue one way or the other. If the letter is from the district or the principal, as I’ve been given to understand, and claims that no red or green decorations are permitted as a matter of policy, that will prove my claims. If it does not, then I’ll have little choice but to withdraw Plano as an example. Well if you don’t get it, perhaps I will. I have just sent a request to the school Superintendent’s office for a copy of the letter under the Texas Public Information Act. I am informed that the school is required to comply to any request for public documents within 4 days, assuming that this particular document isn’t excluded because it’s evidence in ongoing litigation or some other reason. However, even without it as direct evidence, even your own source doesn’t say “the letter. . . claims that no red or green decorations are permitted as a matter of policy.” From the minimal excerpt provided of the hearing: [ > [@](#): > > _by Plaintiffs’ Attorney_ > > So in other words, student-to-student, person-to-person distribution of a material would not be permitted at any time on the school district, according to the policy as we understand that is currently in effect, that has been adopted by the school board. > > These letters which my clients received last week not only reference that policy, reaffirming what the school district had said in January and December of last year, but the letters also require that only, or that the items brought be limited to only approved items. And there’s a list of what is approved by the school district to be brought. > > I won’t go through the items; they’re in the exhibits, Your Honor, but I would call the Court’s attention to the fact that on both lists they reference only white plates, white napkins and white frosting. And that is because it is the practice of this school district to not permit the colors red or green to be used at the parties because of their symbolism to Chistmas and to the Christmas religion, the Christian faith that comes forward from the Christmas holidays. ]([http://www.libertylegal.org/pdfs/Excerpts%20from%20TRO%20hearing.pdf](http://www.libertylegal.org/pdfs/Excerpts%20from%20TRO%20hearing.pdf)) Notice that the plaintiffs’ attorney never said the letters expressly forbid red and/or green, let alone specified that those colors were prohibited because they are associated with Christmas, as a matter of policy. They are only _claiming_ that the directive to bring only white decorations is because PISD has a _practice_ of excluding red and green at parties. _Not_ a policy, and certainly not a _written_ policy. And they looked for that policy, long and hard. _They_ searched the website and they had _“other people”_ search the website, and the only policy they could come up with was, as I’ve said before, the policy, “Student Expression: Distribution of Nonschool Literature Policy,” which says nothing whatsoever about _colors_ or party decorations. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/445 "2006-02-08T18:20:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, I agree. > > I can imagine an SUV owner who writes his Congressman to urge passage of the Kyoto protocols, too. > > That’s not the best analogy here. The ACLU is, I think, internally consistent. Some of what they stand for constitutes an attack on Christmas. Some is neutral with respect to Christmas, and some is favorable towards Christmas. Or perhaps this formulation is excessively paranoid and hysterical, and what’s really going on is that the ACLU has a position on exactly what is unconstitutional government endorsement, and what is protected free exercise? Seeing everything in terms of “you are FOR Christmas or you are AGAINST Christmas” is a bit warping. If I am against giving my employees lunch breaks at 9am right when they get to work, but for giving them a lunch break at 12pm, am I part of a vague but omnipresent movement to destroy lunch breaks? I eat lunch, so am I also some sort of hypocrite? Many people in the ACLU are Christians that celebrate Christmas. Is portraying them as SUV owners that are ultimately against SUVs really appropriate here? It seems to me that your implication is that they are not REALLY Christians, since they are supposedly working against all Christmas is supposed to stand for (why, a partisan pissing contest of course! Just like Jesus always wanted!) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/446 "2006-02-08T18:43:26Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > You say bad publicity; I say elucidation. The public at large began to learn – through the process of having it brought into the light of day – that a movement was afoot to suppress the use of Merry Christmas and to replace it with the holiday-neutral euphemism, Happy Holidays. “having it brought into the light of day”? You mean bad publicity, right? Otherwise, what you seem to be saying is that this entire group of misguided individuals in marketing departments throughout the country, having made the _philosophical_ decision to embrace “Political Correctness” and “eliminate” Christmas (despite the fact that I have seen no evidence that Christmas is politically incorrect outside government agencies), suddenly woke up this December and decided to change direction and go directly against their own philosophical position for no better reason than that they realized (collectively and without any communication among themselves) that it was a bad idea and they gleaned this idea through osmosis because, of course, they never look at the reports that they spend tens of thousands of dollars each month to purchase that provides them with every mention in the media of their corporation and its products, so they were completely unaware of the major media campaign being launched by Hobson, O’Reilly, Falwell, and others. OK. > [@](#): > > Given that the left (in general; please spare me the example of some Christian who has no problem with it) views Christianity (read the religious right in the minds of many) negatively in the main, it isn’t much of a stretch to ascertain the motives behind it…and once enough people became incensed over it a backlash began which you regard as bad publicity, but which is in reality nothing more than irritation at the attempt, and an insistence that things remain as they had always been, which is to advertise Christmas mercandise as such, and to wish people a Merry Christmas without getting dirty looks from the PC Police. Which fails to address why good, right-wing corporate marketing types ever bought into “Political Correctness” to begin with. It also ignores the fact that this “sudden” event has been going on for decades, but only became an issue when the spokespersons of the extreme Right began talking about it (loudly). ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/447 "2006-02-08T21:36:01Z")
Has anybody looked for older versions of the PISD policy page on [archive.org](http://archive.org)? The wayback machine may well have pages from before the lawsuit began. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/448 "2006-02-08T21:50:19Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Many people in the ACLU are Christians that celebrate Christmas. Is portraying them as SUV owners that are ultimately against SUVs really appropriate here? So…you’re saying that the analogy isn’t the best? Man, you’re right! I only wish I thought to say that first. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/449 "2006-02-08T22:11:58Z")
Bricker, why do you assume that any attempt to maintain (or _achieve_) separation of church and state is an “attack” on christmas? First, I think you need to define what you mean by both “attack” and “christmas.” Do you really feel that someone is trying to keep christians from believing in christ and god and the last supper and all that? Is there someone obliterating key passages of the bible so that you can’t reference the essence of your faith? What exactly do you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/450 "2006-02-08T22:13:51Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Bricker, why do you assume that any attempt to maintain (or _achieve_) separation of church and state is an “attack” on christmas? First, I think you need to define what you mean by both “attack” and “christmas.” Do you really feel that someone is trying to keep christians from believing in christ and god and the last supper and all that? Is there someone obliterating key passages of the bible so that you can’t reference the essence of your faith? What exactly do you mean? I mean that people who ask questions without reading the whole thread first should be cast into the lake of eternal fire, with the flame that burns but does not consume. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/451 "2006-02-08T22:20:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I mean that people who ask questions without reading the whole thread first should be cast into the lake of eternal fire, with the flame that burns but does not consume. I read it…I just can’t figure out what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/452 "2006-02-08T22:45:56Z")
**Bricker** , what of post [402](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7079893&postcount=402)? > [@treis](#): > > The point is that the label “War on Christmas” is an improper label for the actions of the ACLU. To use your example in order to cite your opposition of the death penalty as an action you have taken in “The War Against Conservativism” I would have to ignore all of the other conservative values you support. In other words, while the outward evidence in this case might show that you are against conservativism looking at the complete body of evidence its clear that your motivations lie elsewhere. I can look at your other actions in support of conservativism and deduce that you have no issue with that movement. > > In the case of the ACLU if you only look at the cases in which they are acting against Christmas in the public sphere then you might conclude that they are engaging in “The War Against Christmas.” However, if you look at their body of work you see that it includes cases of supporting Christmas. Its clear from the ACLU’s support of Christmas that they harbor no ill will towards Christmas and that the actions you cite have a motivation other than the ACLU being anti-Christmas. I can look at the ACLU’s track record and realize that these actions are not a “War on Christmas” rather actions towards some other purpose. > > These actions by the ACLU can’t be used to show that they are engaged in a “War on Christmas” any more than I can cite your opposition to the death penalty to show that you are engaged in a “War on Conservativism”. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/453 "2006-02-09T06:41:11Z")
I have never in my life had anyone scowl at me when I wished them a Merry Christmas. When there has been some reason to think that the other person might be put off by my comment (such as in placing a telephone order) I’ve either left it off or wished them happy holidays. That had absolutely nothing to do with “political correctness” and everything to do with good manners and the way I was brought up. I prefer “Happy Holidays” to “Season’s Greetings.” That was a biggie back in the 1950’s. So was “Merry Xmas.” (There was also a campaign then too to “put the Christ back in Christmas.”) Those who understood the “X” knew that Christ was still intact. [quote] Starving Artist\*\*: My complaint has nothing to do with insisting others join in; it has to do with others who disapprove wanting to make mine disappear. I really don’t know of anyone who cares whether you say “Merry Christmas” or “Happy Holidays.” Do you honestly think that the left doesn’t support your freedom of speech? I honestly don’t understand where this “movement” is. I could always find a meeting of like-minded feminists for the women’s movement, or civil-rights activists, or supporters of the peace movement. Where is the “War on Christmas” Movement organized? The ACLU doesn’t seem to be organized to ban “Merry Christmas.” Liberal churches, to the best of my knowledge, have no dog in this hunt. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/454 "2006-02-09T07:02:55Z")
[quick hijack] Re: Red and green napkins versus white napkins Could a teacher’s time be spent more productively with your child? Sometimes we are nit-picked to death.[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/455 "2006-02-09T09:44:35Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > “Happy Holidays.” Do you honestly think that the left doesn’t support your freedom of speech? Yes, I do. Political correctness, almost by its very definition, exists to inhibit certain types of speech and to dictate others. And just for the record, I’ve seen every bit as much censoriousness, bigotry, ignorance and hate come from the left as I ever have from the right…it just comes from the opposite end of the spectrum. I learned many years ago that there is very little difference in the way people behave, regardless of their political affiliation. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/456 "2006-02-09T09:45:06Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I honestly don’t understand where this “movement” is. I could always find a meeting of like-minded feminists for the women’s movement, or civil-rights activists, or supporters of the peace movement. Where is the “War on Christmas” Movement organized? The ACLU doesn’t seem to be organized to ban “Merry Christmas.” Liberal churches, to the best of my knowledge, have no dog in this hunt. I’m with you. I’ve never once heard anyone say a word about this except for the handful of people who somehow feel threatened by the phrase “Happy Holidays”. And I’ll tell ya…if there was a movement to join, I’d be in support of it. The paranoid christians need to put this in perspective. Being a christian in America means you get to believe freely in whatever you want. But we don’t alter the calendar for you. The rest of America gets 365 days to believe in what they believe, too. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/457 "2006-02-09T09:49:40Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Yes, I do. Political correctness, almost by its very definition, exists to inhibit certain types of speech and to dictate others. And just for the record, I’ve seen every bit as much censoriousness, bigotry, ignorance and hate come from the left as I ever have from the right…it just comes from the opposite end of the spectrum. > > I learned many years ago that there is very little difference in the way people behave, regardless of their political affiliation. How is “Happy Holidays” politically incorrect? No one is insulted by this term. Quite the contrary. It is all-inclusive and _less_ abrasive than “Merry Christmas.” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/458 "2006-02-09T10:03:03Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’m with you. I’ve never once heard anyone say a word about this except for the handful of people who somehow feel threatened by the phrase “Happy Holidays”. And I’ll tell ya…if there was a movement to join, I’d be in support of it. > > The paranoid christians need to put this in perspective. Being a christian in America means you get to believe freely in whatever you want. But we don’t alter the calendar for you. The rest of America gets 365 days to believe in what they believe, too. Do you also believe that, given the fact that we celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25, merchants should have the right to advertise Christmas sales and to display the word Chistmas in their stores as this date approaches? Do you believe it’s just fine to advertise items for Christmas on the television and radio? Do you believe people have the right to wish each other a Merry Christmas in public venues? In short, do you think we have the right to speak, advertise and display items regarding Christmas in the same way that we do Thanksgiving, the 4th of July and Memorial Day, or do you think public advertising, display and mention of Christmas should be suppressed because it’s insensitive to people of other religions, or to those who are atheists, or to those who feel Christianity is an impediment to social change that they favor? Or are these things, as I suspect, what you are talking about when you allege we think we ‘own’ the day? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/459 "2006-02-09T10:20:19Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > How is “Happy Holidays” politically incorrect? No one is insulted by this term. Quite the contrary. It is all-inclusive and _less_ abrasive than “Merry Christmas.” :: sigh :: There is nothing wrong with Happy Holidays in and of itself; there is a lot wrong with saying we shouldn’t say Merry Christmas or display the word Christmas anywhere in public and that we should replace it instead with Happy Holidays. You seem to think people should hide away in their own homes and celebrate Christmas in secret so as not to annoy or offend anyone who doesn’t want to have to be exposed to it. Well, it ain’t gonna happen, pal! This isn’t the Soviet Union; we have every right to celebrate our holiday openly, freely and publicly…just like like anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205/460 "2006-02-09T10:24:07Z")
And now, given that I don’t have another night to devote to this subject, I must bid you all adieu. Good night. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-christmas-revisited/342205.md?page=24)