# War on terror - When Ashcroft met his match **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2002, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759 "2002-04-26T13:30:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/1 "2002-04-26T13:30:53Z")
According to: > **[Pilot freed as terror case fails](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/apr/25/september11.usa)** > > An Algerian pilot accused by the United States of training some of the September 11 hijackers walked free from court yesterday after a British judge ruled that charges against him were unsubstantiated. He is now considering suing for damages. when the FBI was asked to justify its accusations of terrorist activities against Lofti Raissi, its case fell apart in front of an independent judicial system: 'An Algerian pilot accused by the United States of training some of the September 11 hijackers walked free from court yesterday after a British judge ruled that charges against him were unsubstantiated. He is now considering suing for damages. 'Lotfi Raissi, 27, who was originally told he was likely to be charged with conspiracy to murder and could face the death penalty in the US, smiled as the judge said that there was no evidence whatsoever to support allegations of involvement in terrorism. His family clapped and outside the court he and his wife Sonia wept as they realised that an ordeal that has lasted seven months was finally over. ‘The man who was the first person to be accused of participating in the attacks on the World Trade centre and the Pentagon - and who was said to be the key suspect in the biggest investigation in criminal history - was free to go.’ Given that Ashcroft was certain that this man helped train the 9/11 terrorists, yet cannot justify this before an independent tribunal, what does this say about similar allegations against the inhabitants of Camp X-Ray and the ‘dissappeared’ (those people held incommunicado after 9/11, mostly Arab-American) who have been similarly accused of terrorism or supporting terrorism, but have not had their cases heard by an independent tribunal. It does seem very strange that if Ashcroft believed in September 2001 that: “He was a lead instructor of four of the pilots that were responsible for the hijackings,” prosecutor Arvinda Sambir told the court. “The one that we are concerned about is the one that went into the Pentagon.” that it cannot be made to stand up in court. (from: [UK-based Algerian pilot may face extradition | September 11 2001 | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4266533,00.html)) I wonder how many of the questionably detained in Camp X-ray and in the US would fare if they had access to an independent tribunal as happened accidentally to Lofti Raissi- accidentally that is because he was arrested in the UK and not in Afghanistan or the US. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/2 "2002-04-26T17:44:41Z")
This is why those secret military trials make me very, very uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/3 "2002-04-26T19:05:42Z")
Yep, I saw it a couple days ago at [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/24/inv.uk.hearing/index.html) and thought the same thing. It seems the US tried the bigger charges and when those didn’t stick they tried some minor stuff and that didn’t stick either. If a British judge decides there is absolutely no evidence or probable cause, what was Ashcroft smoking? The defendant was lucky he was arrested in the UK or he’d be locked up in Gitmo with much bleaker perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/4 "2002-04-26T19:08:42Z")
“Hysterical fantasies of lost liberties” indeed. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/5 "2002-04-26T19:13:25Z")
A question for **Guinastasia, sailor, Revtim, Pjen** – Based on all you know, how certain are you that he’s not a terrorist? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/6 "2002-04-26T19:17:44Z")
Do you have evidence saying he is? Doesn’t the term “unsubstantiated” mean anything to you? If the FBI couldn’t make their case, then he goes free. D’uh. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/7 "2002-04-26T19:20:44Z")
um **december** cause when the US was asked to demonstrate that there was even sufficient reason to believe that he should be **extradicted** (let alone tried and convicted), they were unable to satisfy this judge’s asssesment. ---
**Author:** ![Demosthenesian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Demosthenesian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demosthenesian)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/8 "2002-04-26T19:21:03Z")
Proven innocent. Repeatedly. In a court of law. As a terrorist Against the might of a department of justice whose greatest focus right now is terrorism. Not only innocent, but spectacularly so. > [@](#): > > “Hysterical fantasies of lost liberties” indeed. Word up. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/9 "2002-04-26T19:51:54Z")
Apparently my question was unclear. I don’t question that the judge ruled properly, based on the evidence before him. But, if this guy really is a terrorist, he may go out and kill some people. You and I wouldn’t be happy if Raissi commits some horrible act. So, my question is, how certain are each of you in your own mind that he’s not a terrorist? Are you positive? Is it 50-50? Do you think he probably does have some connection with al Quaeda? What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/10 "2002-04-26T20:17:30Z")
**december** - and exactly why would you suspect that he **is** a terrorist? 'cause Ashcroft said so? Ashcroft wasn’t able to convince the judge. Or are you suggesting that mere suspicion be the new standard for incarceration? ---
**Author:** ![Demosthenesian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Demosthenesian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demosthenesian)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/11 "2002-04-26T20:19:31Z")
it isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Maximino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@Mighty\_Maximino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Maximino)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/12 "2002-04-26T20:21:16Z")
No kidding. If he’s a terrorist he “may” go out and kill some people? I’m thinking there’s a possibility that any of us might go out and do that . . . better lock us all up, or we’ll feel guilty if someone commits some horrible act! If you think the judge made the correct decision (i.e., that there wasn’t even enough evidence for extradition) then you should agree that he must be let go. If the Justice Department finds more evidence later, then all bets are off. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/13 "2002-04-26T21:08:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mighty Maximino \* > \*\*If you think the judge made the correct decision (i.e., that there wasn’t even enough evidence for extradition) then you should agree that he must be let go. \*\* Yes, I agree that the judge made the proper decision, given the evidence before him. However, it also matters to me whether he’s _actually innocent or guilty_. So, I ask for the 3rd and last time: _How certain are each of you in your own mind that he’s not a terrorist? Are you positive? Is it 50-50? Do you think he probably does have some connection with al Quaeda? Do you feel certain that he is a terrorist?_ Answering my own question, I think it’s more likely than not that he is a terrorist. _What do you think?_ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/14 "2002-04-26T21:10:44Z")
I see no evidence for him BEING a terrorist. **december** -what evidence do you have that he IS? Other than he was suspected. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/15 "2002-04-26T21:14:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*I see no evidence for him BEING a terrorist. \*\* So, is it fair to say that in your mind, **Guinastasia** , Lotfi Raissi is no more likely to be a terrorist than some random person selected from the phone book? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/16 "2002-04-26T21:15:43Z")
What exactly are you proposing **december**? that anyone that Ashcroft thinks or suspects to be a terrorist should be incarcerated simply because we don’t want to run the risk of them being guilty? that’s why we have standards of evidence. This man **was** held (apprently wrongfully) for a significant period of time. gee - you know, **you** look kinda suspicious to me. I think it’s entirely possible that you might do something bad in the future. I don’t have any proof, mind you, but gosh, if I’m right, then we’d really be in trouble. Just to be on the safe side, I think we should lock up all posters who’s screen names start with the letter “D” (lower or upper case)\> ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/17 "2002-04-26T21:22:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > What exactly are you proposing **december**? I’m proposing that you answer my question. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Maximino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@Mighty\_Maximino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Maximino)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/18 "2002-04-26T21:23:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **Answering my own question, I think it’s more likely than not that he is a terrorist.** Why is that? Based on the two articles linked to, he seems more like just a pilot than a terrorist; if you have access to other information, I’d love to see it. I’m not at all certain that he’s _not_ a terrorist, but that doesn’t in the least make me think he _is_. Based on what I’ve seen, though, I don’t think he’s a terrorist. The Feds have perfectly fine cases against other people, like Moussaoui. If they pull stunts like this, I’m concerned that it might hurt their credibility, which is especially important when many Arabs don’t even believe that al Queda was behind the attacks. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/19 "2002-04-26T21:30:05Z")
OK december, what is there to suggest that you aren’t the Unabomber? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759/20 "2002-04-26T21:31:26Z")
**december** Your question is, apparently “should we have completely different standards of justice, evidence, proof for people Ashcroft suspects are terrorists than for any other situation” and my answer is emphatically no. Do I feel ‘bad’ when some one who once was in custody commits a crime? yes. However, my sense of justice requires a certain amount of consistency. And changing the rules of evidence, proof, standards for guilt etc would be, IMHO, dismantling our system of justice and freedom. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terror-when-ashcroft-met-his-match/105759.md?page=2)