# War on Terrorism? Shut down the School of the Americas! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2001, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959 "2001-09-26T18:45:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/21 "2001-09-26T20:38:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Corrado \* > \*\*\*Olentzero obviously has the equipment and know-how to have sex. Therefore, he must be watched most carefully as a potential rapist. \*\* You know, I actually had respect for you until you pulled that shit, **John**. Go fuck yourself. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/22 "2001-09-26T21:01:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > > You know, I actually had respect for you until you pulled that shit, **John**. Go fuck yourself. I apologize, Olenzero- that line was beyond the bounds, and I am sorry that I said it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/23 "2001-09-26T21:22:58Z")
**John** , it’s the Pit. Cut yourself some slack. **Olent** , what he said actually was a logical conclusion to draw from what you said. Don’t take it so personally. ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/24 "2001-09-26T21:35:49Z")
**Guin** , I don’t quite grasp what that quote you provided has to do with the School of the Americas. The Pinknoiz site simply refers to it as “[o]ne of the CIA’s illegal training manuals for the _contras_”. What does a CIA training manual have to do with a U.S. Army training facility? I’m looking at the SOA manuals on the first site you provided, and there’s a lot of material, but I haven’t found anything about torture yet. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/25 "2001-09-26T21:36:01Z")
**Guin** - Did you have a love affair with your Latin American Studies professor by chance? He seems to have left quite an impression on you. I swear, you could hijack a recipe-swapping thread in MPSIMS into “American imperialist dogs created monsters in Latin America.” Does this jukebox play any other songs? I’m all salsa-ed out. (Although I applaud you for finally creating a thread for it.) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/26 "2001-09-26T21:42:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milossarian \* > **Guin** - Did you have a love affair with your Latin American Studies professor by chance? He seems to have left quite an impression on you. Fuck you. That was vile. So, in other words, I can’t have admiration for someone, without fucking them? Get bent. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/27 "2001-09-26T21:49:43Z")
**Guin** - You are correct. My opening question was inappropriate, even if this is the Pit, and I apologize for it. I stand by the rest, though. So your “fuck you” may still apply. ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/28 "2001-09-26T21:54:28Z")
Aha! I found a part where they talk about [torture](http://168.143.151.139/Manuals/inter1.html). > [@](#): > > Habiendo obtenido la ventaja inicial, el interrogador debe esforzarse por mantener la iniciativa aplicando tecnicas apropiadas de interrogación mediante el dominio de si mismo; sacando ventaja de las debilidades de el informante (prisionero) segun se hacen aparentes y desplegando continuamente una actitud de confianza y seguridad en si mismo. Sin embargo, el interrogador nunca debe sacar ventajas de las debilidades de el informante al extremo de que el interrogatorio involucre amenazas, insultos, tortura o exposición a trato. My translation: > [@](#): > > Having obtained the initial advantage, the interrogator must exert himself to maintain the initiative by applying appropriate interrogatin techniques by the control of himself; taking advantage of the weaknesses of the informant (prisoner) as they become apparent and constantly displaying an attitude of confidence and self-security. Nevertheless, the interrogator must never take advantage of the weaknesses of the informant to the extreme of involving threats, insults, **torture** or exposure to treatment [sic] in the interrogation. A little further down, it says, > [@](#): > > El uso de fuerza, tortura mental, amenazas insultos o exposicion a trato desagradable e inhumano de cualquier clase como ayuda al interrogatorio, esta prohibido por la ley. La experiencia indica que el uso de la fuerza no es necesario para obtener la cooperacion de los informantes para el interrogatorio. El uso de la fuerza es una tecnica pobre, produce resultados no confiables, puede disminuir subsiguientes esfuerzos de recoleccion y puede inducir a el informante a decir lo que piensa que el interrogador quiere oír. My translation: > [@](#): > > The use of force, mental torture, threats insults [sic] or exposure to unpleasant or inhuman treatment of any type as an interrogation aid, is prohibited by law. Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to obtain informants’ cooperation for interrogation. The use of force is a poor technique, produces unreliable results, can diminish subsequent efforts at recollection and can induce an informant to say what he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. So apparently the SOA does teach about torture, specifically by telling you never to employ it. More as I find out more. ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/29 "2001-09-26T22:09:22Z")
Here’s another part about torture. Same page, just slightly below the last paragraph I translated. > [@](#): > > La tortura y coercion mental gira alrededor de la > eliminacion del “Libre Albedrío” de la fuente y son violaciones explicitas del Artículo 17, Convenciones de Ginebra Relativas al Trato de Prisioneros de Guerra (PGE). La precedencia indica que la tortura o coerción mental involucra el uso de la fuerza o violencia u otras amenazas para ganarse la cooperacíon de una fuente. Cuando se amenaza con violencia, la fuente tiene que escoger entre cooperar con la autoridad y tener la fuerza (inclusive la muerte o el desmembramiento) aplicados a la fuente o su familia. Sin embargo, para que la amenaza de violencia se efectue, la autoridad debe aplicar la violencia para justificar sus amenazas. My translation: > [@](#): > > Torture and mental coercion revolve around the elimination of the source’s “Free Will” and are explicit violations of Article 17, Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War (PGE). Past history indicates that torture or mental coercion involves the use of force or violence or other threats to gain a source’s cooperation. When threatened with violence, the source must choose between cooperating with the authority and having force {including death or dismemberment) applied to the source or his family. Nevertheless, for the threat of violent to take effect, the authority must apply violence to justify his threats. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/30 "2001-09-26T22:11:32Z")
Appology accepted, Milo. I will admit that with my two favorite professors, I DO have a tendency towards hero worship. I guess it just ticks me off-since that time Wildest Bill accused me of trading “favors” with my Russian professor so I could get a ride to class. ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/31 "2001-09-26T22:11:50Z")
D’oh! The last sentence should say, “Nevertheless, for the threat of **violence** to take effect, the authority must apply violence to justify his threats.” ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/32 "2001-09-26T22:47:32Z")
Apology accepted, **John** , and vitriol retracted. **dropzone** - Firstly, if he had said > [@](#): > > \*[Men in general] obviously ha[ve] the equipment and know-how to have sex. Therefore, [they] must be watched most carefully as a potential rapist[s] or something along those lines, the worst I probably would have done is a :rolleyes: and gone into the rebuttal you’ll find below. Unfortunately, he used a much more precise term - my name - and thus passed over into the realm of what most scholarly rhetoricians (is that a word?) call a “cheap shot”. I don’t take kindly to those, and it may happen that I use invective rather than reason to call someone out on it. End of story. Incident forgotten. Now - to the logic of the argument. Having a penis and testicles does not make a man a rapist, or even a potential rapist. No more than possession of a gun makes someone a soldier or a terrorist. Rapists come about because of a specific set of psychological and emotional factors, among which are being brought up to view women as inferior, an unhealthy prioritization of sex as a goal in personal relationships, and finally an overwhelming feeling of powerlessness such that desperation to exert any sort of power becomes a goal. In this last point I’d argue terrorists and rapists have something very much in common. Soldiers and terrorists come about because they have been trained in the mindset of war and have been taught to seek out an enemy to fight. Who is defined as an enemy depends on the circumstances the soldier finds himself in. Is he in an army led by a military dictator supported by a larger country in the region? Then the enemy is the “insurgency”, whether it be actively fighting elements or merely currents of support for the opposition. Therefore the population must be terrorized into fearing to show that support, and the leaders - or most vocal proponents - of the opposition must be silenced. Through the Monroe Doctrine, the United States has claimed exclusive right to protect its interests in the Western Hemisphere, and to take any measures it deems necessary to achieve that purpose. Thus it will back any government that appears to support US interests, and will train representatives of the military to become more effective in its actions. Opposition to these governments is thus opposition to US interests, and such opposition must be defeated. As others have stated in their arguments, this is not knee-jerk anti-Americanism, nor do I support the “polar opposite” embodied in the enemy of the month. If another country were the tallest poppy in the field - England, Russia, hell, even Sweden if they’d been successful in building an empire - they would be acting the same way. It’s the logic of the capitalist system itself rather than any cultural or political reflection of the country at the controls. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/33 "2001-09-26T22:51:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danimal \* > **Torture and mental coercion revolve around the elimination of the source’s “Free Will” and are explicit violations of Article 17, Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War (PGE). Past history indicates that torture or mental coercion involves the use of force or violence or other threats to gain a source’s cooperation. When threatened with violence, the source must choose between cooperating with the authority and having force {including death or dismemberment) applied to the source or his family. Nevertheless, for the threat of violent to take effect, the authority must apply violence to justify his threats.** Am I missing something here? It seems to me an accurate summation of this paragraph would be “Torture is against the Geneva Convention, but torture involves force, and force must be used to elicit cooperation from the source.” (Source of what, by the way?) Is this not the same thing as saying torture should be used? ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/34 "2001-09-26T22:58:49Z")
FWIW… The barracks I lived in while stationed in Homestead, FL, was across the way from the “Inter-American Air Force Academy”. It held a couple of hundred (mostly young, under 25 or so) enlisted airman from nearly all OAS countries. Columbia, Mexico, Panama, El Salvador, you name it. The purpose of IAAFA was not, as some believe, to breed dictators, but to make people from different countries work together to keep them from growing up and killing each other. ---
**Author:** ![Arjuna34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Arjuna34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arjuna34)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/35 "2001-09-26T23:02:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > \*\* > Soldiers and terrorists come about because they have been trained in the mindset of war and have been taught to seek out an enemy to fight. Who is defined as an enemy depends on the circumstances the soldier finds himself in. \*\* Do you really think innocent people go into the WHISC, and come out brainwashed into terrorists (by being “trained in the mindset of war”)? It’s interesting that the WTC terrorists didn’t get much of a chance to apply military training in this act. Since they were just armed with box cutters and knives, they could have trained at a martial arts school in just about any town in the US. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If another country were the tallest poppy in the field - England, Russia, hell, even Sweden if they’d been successful in building an empire - they would be acting the same way. It’s the logic of the capitalist system itself rather than any cultural or political reflection of the country at the controls. \*\* What does capitalism have to do with this? “Building an empire” sounds more like what the Soviet Union was trying to in eastern Europe than the United States in South America. Arjuna34 ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/36 "2001-09-26T23:26:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bluepony \* > If you can’t stomach the fact that the present war on terrorism is a just and righteous cause, then at least refrain from the political rhetoric like most Americans are doing now. What the fuck? [sub]Ignoring of my actual views on the subject (which are a whole three pages unto themselves)…[/sub] God forbid anybody opposed to this “war”–or a pacifist in general–speak out. That would be terrible; all those people expressing their political views openly… ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/37 "2001-09-26T23:44:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Danimal \* > > **Torture and mental coercion revolve around the elimination of the source’s “Free Will” and are explicit violations of Article 17, Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War (PGE). Past history indicates that torture or mental coercion involves the use of force or violence or other threats to gain a source’s cooperation. When threatened with violence, the source must choose between cooperating with the authority and having force {including death or dismemberment) applied to the source or his family. Nevertheless, for the threat of violent to take effect, the authority must apply violence to justify his threats.** > > Am I missing something here? It seems to me an accurate summation of this paragraph would be “Torture is against the Geneva Convention, but torture involves force, and force must be used to elicit cooperation from the source.” (Source of what, by the way?) > Is this not the same thing as saying torture should be used? \*\* That was clearly not meant, since two paragraphs up it clearly said “Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to obtain informants’ cooperation for interrogation.” This paragraph is describing torture, not saying it should be used. A “source” is a person who is a source of information, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/38 "2001-09-26T23:49:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > \*\*Military training’s purpose is to teach people how to fight war. War’s purpose is to kill the enemy. You may not intend for someone to use the skills they learned against a civilian population, but if you teach someone how to kill the enemy and they use what they’ve learned, no matter who or what their target is, you are responsible for them having learned the skills to accomplish that goal. \*\* But you don’t need much training to kill civilians. If the School of Americas did not exist, wouldn’t those soldiers inclined to kill civilians still have done so? Would perhaps more have done so because they were never taught by the SOA that force against a population is ineffective? One of my karate instructor’s students killed his wife and then himself. Is my instructor a terrorist? We were taught to use our art only in self-defense, but under your logic, is my instructor not responsible? I’m sorry, but I can’t help but feel that the far left looks fairly hard for crimes to place upon the US. The motivation for such action I cannot discern and it as mysterious to me as the self abusive whipping rites of the ancient Flagellants. We’re evil! SMACK! EVIIIIILLL! SMACK! The US certainly has made mistakes, I see no reason to invent new ones to place upon it. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/39 "2001-09-27T00:17:43Z")
…Or at least a wire report. Here are excerpts from an AP article dated May 19, 2000 and entitled, “House votes to reform rather than close School of the Americas.” > [@](#): > > A controversial Army school that trains Latin Americans in combat techniques got new life Thursday when the U.S. House opted to change its name rather than close its doors. By a 214-204 vote, lawmakers rejected an amendment that would have shut down the School of the Americas for at least 10 months while alleged human rights violations are investigated. > [@](#): > > In recent years, the protest group SOA Watch found new reasons to rally against the facility. Four years ago, the Pentagon acknowledged that training manuals used at the school recommended bribery, blackmail, threats and torture against insurgents. The manuals were destroyed in 1991 after an internal investigation. > [@](#): > > In an effort to improve its public image, the School of the Americas now offers courses in civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![drillrod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@drillrod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drillrod)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/40 "2001-09-27T00:42:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Danimal \* > > **Torture and mental coercion revolve around the elimination of the source’s “Free Will” and are explicit violations of Article 17, Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War (PGE). Past history indicates that torture or mental coercion involves the use of force or violence or other threats to gain a source’s cooperation. When threatened with violence, the source must choose between cooperating with the authority and having force {including death or dismemberment) applied to the source or his family. Nevertheless, for the threat of violent to take effect, the authority must apply violence to justify his threats.** > > Am I missing something here? It seems to me an accurate summation of this paragraph would be “Torture is against the Geneva Convention, but torture involves force, and force must be used to elicit cooperation from the source.” (Source of what, by the way?) > Is this not the same thing as saying torture should be used? \*\* No. What they are saying in this paragraph is that force and torture are against the GC. Futher, they say that you shouldn’t use THREATS of force or violence because in order for such a threat to be effective, it must be carried out. Threatening torture or violence backs you into a corner which you’ll have to violate the GC to get out of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959.md?page=3)