# War on Terrorism? Shut down the School of the Americas! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2001, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959 "2001-09-26T18:45:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![drillrod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@drillrod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drillrod)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/41 "2001-09-27T00:50:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danimal \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Having obtained the initial advantage, the interrogator must exert himself to maintain the initiative by applying appropriate interrogatin techniques by the control of himself; taking advantage of the weaknesses of the informant (prisoner) as they become apparent and constantly displaying an attitude of confidence and self-security. Nevertheless, the interrogator must never take advantage of the weaknesses of the informant to the extreme of involving threats, insults, **torture** or exposure to treatment [sic] in the interrogation. > > My translation: > > > [@](#): > > > > The use of force, mental torture, threats insults [sic] or exposure to unpleasant or inhuman treatment of any type as an interrogation aid, is prohibited by law. Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to obtain informants’ cooperation for interrogation. The use of force is a poor technique, produces unreliable results, can diminish subsequent efforts at recollection and can induce an informant to say what he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. > > \*\* Danimal, great job on the translations! Here, insultos means injury, as in threats of injury. Not trying to sharp-shoot ya. You’re doing great. (muttering to self) I have got to learn how to figure out how to work this msg board. Sure wish I could put some cool smile thingy in this msg for Danimal. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/42 "2001-09-27T01:43:32Z")
Olentzero, perhaps the rape analogy went too far, perhaps not, but here’s another one for you. Last time he was in town, Ex-tank and I went to the range to shoot at targets. He showed me a better grip than I had been using for firing a pistol, more comfortable, steady and accurate. Now, if I take it into my head to go shoot, say, John Corrado ( and hey, who dosen’t think about it now and then;) ), and am able to do so effectively because of the grip the Ex-Tank showed me, is Ex-Tank to blame? He certainly had no idea that I was planning moderatoricide when he demonstrated it. How is he to blame in any way? Also: > [@](#): > > It’s the logic of the capitalist system itself rather than any cultural or political reflection of the country at the controls. So if we followed a communist system, we would react how? Like the Soviets in Chezckolsovakia? In Afghanistan? Like Cuba exporting soldiers all over the globe to brushfire wars? What is your point here? Nations don’t have friends, they have interests, no matter what stripe they are politically. I would argue that the massive civillian and government sponsored humanatarian aid that the U.S. is justifibly famous for is a direct outgrowth of that same capitalistic mindset you blame for so much of the world’s evils. It’s only when individual needs are more than met that one can look around to see where the excess may be needed. ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/43 "2001-09-27T01:55:05Z")
Thanks, **drillrod**. I included the original Spanish precisely so that anyone who wanted to correct or improve my translation could do so. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/44 "2001-09-27T02:18:52Z")
From the news report **Gadarene** posted, it seems that since 2000 the SOA IS giving courses on civil rights and how not to use torture. What where they doing before? And, all the articles that people have quoted here, are they before or after the change mentioned in the news wires? Just asking… ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/45 "2001-09-27T02:57:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > > \*\*I’m an ex-Canadian soldier who once did a military intelligence exercise in Albany with the US Army; is Albany a terrorist training base? Am I a terrorist? \*\* > > Have you burned Canadian towns to the ground and mutilated, raped, or slaughtered the inhabitants for supporting the government that overthrew the one you liked?\*\* If I did, would Albany, NY be a terrorist training base? I think the point’s flown over your head. The SOA wasn’t a terrorist training base, period. The fact that it’s trained thugs, murderers and terrorists is interesting - but then, so has Harvard. The United States is not, **as Guinistasia seems to be claiming,** training people to be terrorists. The fact that some scumbags took advantage of USA’s hospitality - and since you don’t really need training to kill peasants I’m not seeing how the SOA really helped them murder anyone anyway - isn’t relevant to whether or not the SOA is a “Terrorist training base.” Let’s be up front here; how did the SOA help anyone be a terrorist? Do you think they train people to rape nuns there? As for your claim that this is a capitalist thing, with all due respect, gimme a fucking break. Capitalists aren’t likelier than communists, monarchists, or anarchists to be terrorists - in fact, I’d say they’re less likely. ---
**Author:** ![Nietzsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8dc957/32.png) [@Nietzsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nietzsche)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/46 "2001-09-27T04:51:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lno \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > > What is the difference? The fact that you perhaps didn’t intend for your students to use what they learned in the manner they did? > > Perhaps I’ve missed something you said, but would you hold a driver’s education teacher responsible if one of his students runs down a trade unionist now that he knows how to drive a car? \*\* Don’t you think that’s a bit of a stretch? At least to me, it doesn’t sound like a very valid analogy here. We’re not talking about the things people have repeated over and over in their replies here; for example karate instruction, driving school, or how to hold a pistol. We’re talking about instructions on crowd control and coercion. How to respond to an insurgency is _NOT_ the same thing as teaching someone self defense skills. The potential for disaster here seems substantially higher here than the other similarities others have pointed out. The little disclaimer stating that it’s against the Geneva convention to employ torture as a method to extract information is of little value. Torture’s against the law? I’m sure some of the seedier elements of humanity may not take time out to make the moral observations that their instructors at the SOA may ask them to. So then the Army’s only reasoning behind keeping such an operation going is that “we only train the good guys.” Right. But how can they guarantee that those skills will remain on the side of “right?” How do they know if they’re not training the next Noriega (again)? I read the articles that were on the site that Guinastasia posted the links to, and I agree. I can’t say that this is a “terrorist training school” but it can easily be a “potential terrorist training school.” It’s existence may have been arguable during the cold war, but now? And in light of this country’s determination to stamp out terrorism, I think it seems dangerous to have an operation like this still continuing. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/47 "2001-09-27T11:49:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nietzsche \* > **We’re talking about instructions on crowd control and coercion. How to respond to an insurgency is _NOT_ the same thing as teaching someone self defense skills.** Folks here have already posted many quotes from these manuals that state the use of force is not the way to deal with the local population. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I can’t say that this is a “terrorist training school” but it can easily be a “potential terrorist training school.” > \*\* The school simply doesn’t teach terrorist tactics. It teaches guerrilla war tactics. There IS a difference. Now if you don’t think the US should be training guerrilla war tactics where they might be used in war zones like Columbia, that’s an arguement I can understand. But I feel it’s inflammatory rhetoric to label the US as a terrorist sponsor because of this school. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/48 "2001-09-27T12:32:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KarlGrenze \* > **From the news report Gadarene posted, it seems that since 2000 the SOA IS giving courses on civil rights and how not to use torture. What where they doing before?** I believe, because using torture doesn’t cross the minds of good and helpful people, they simply weren’t concerned with it, which is considerably different from ACTIVELY TEACHING IT. Bullies generally don’t need instructions on how to bully, but, like any intelligent creature, they are capable of imagining other uses for seemingly unrelated things. (Cue the theme music for "Man, the Toolmaker) They don’t need someone else to come up with creative uses for, say, extension cords. They come up with them on their own. In fact, it is condescendingly Americentric to imagine these guys need us to teach them how to be bad. America is not perfect, but it is also not the Great Satan. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/49 "2001-09-27T13:32:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > Olentzero, perhaps the rape analogy went too far, perhaps not, but here’s another one for you. Last time he was in town, Ex-tank and I went to the range to shoot at targets. He showed me a better grip than I had been using for firing a pistol, more comfortable, steady and accurate. Now, if I take it into my head to go shoot, say, John Corrado ( and hey, who dosen’t think about it now and then;) ), and am able to do so effectively because of the grip the Ex-Tank showed me, is Ex-Tank to blame? He certainly had no idea that I was planning moderatoricide when he demonstrated it. How is he to blame in any way? You fucking son of a bitch. I used to respect you, but no more. You and Ex-Tank went _shooting_, and nobody _called_ me? Bastards. [sup]Okay, it’s probably my fault for not reading MPSIMS enough.[/sup] 😉 😛 ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/50 "2001-09-27T13:44:16Z")
Yet ANOTHER dumb ficking thread where the rhetoric was so thick it prevented half the people from seeing the truth. And if you cut it with a knife, you were a terrorist to. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blackclaw \* > Folks here have already posted many quotes from these manuals that state the use of force is not the way to deal with the local population. And it seems like they are only helping their opponents build strawmen to burn. It’s a Pit thread, not GD. Fuck this conversation. Learning chemistry does not make one a bomb-manufacturer. I would think that is obvious, but apparently some people have a different level of perception. Learning engineering does not make you sabatoge bridges. I would think this, too, is obvious, but apparently not. **John** , while the example may have been somewhat over the top, it is a shame that the implication is too strong. After all, high testosterone levels are what make terrorists, just ask any feminist. For the record, the SOA were the ones who assasinated anyone who had any information about the NASA moon hoax, too. And they don’t like teddy bears. **Guinistasia** , you might want to take a look at _the very first fucking thing_ you quoted to give you some proper perspective here. > [@](#): > > A guerrilla armed force always involves implicit terror because the population, without saying it aloud, feels terror that the weapons may be used against them. However, **if the terror does not become explicit, positive results can be expected.** em added This takes the logical form ~P–\>Q, or “no force” implies “positive results”. I know its a startlingly difficult one to grasp, being able to be expressed in four symbols. **Olentzero** , if only we had trained Lenin at the SOA everything would be alright. _sigh_ Well, a shame we can’t undo that. > [@](#): > > Soldiers and terrorists come about because they have been trained in the mindset of war and have been taught to seek out an enemy to fight. Now we are linking soldiers and terrorists explicitly. Good one, man. Fuck off. > [@](#): > > In fact, it is condescendingly Americentric to imagine these guys need us to teach them how to be bad. But don’t you see, **dropzone** , the first premise IS “America is bad.” What other kind of conclusion do you expect from such a starting point? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/51 "2001-09-27T13:58:40Z")
According to the wire report I posted, though, **RickJay** and **dropzone** , “Four years ago, the Pentagon acknowledged that training manuals used at the school recommended bribery, blackmail, threats and torture against insurgents.” So they did used to do those things at the SOA. They may not now, but that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t at one time valid human rights concerns surrounding the school. Cut **Guin** a little slack. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/52 "2001-09-27T14:12:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > \*\*But don’t you see, **dropzone** , the first premise IS “America is bad.” What other kind of conclusion do you expect from such a starting point? \*\* Of course I saw that. It is why I’m doubly offended, both by the assumption that America is training these guys to be evil and that, without our intervention, they would be good. Perhaps an earlier intention was to give them whatever tools they needed to fight the war against International Communism, with a blind eye turned to the means they used, but I know that in recent years that has not been the case. Democracy has been growing in South America, and I give at least some credit to the refocussing of the School of the Americas’ agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/53 "2001-09-27T14:33:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arjuna34 \* > **Do you really think innocent people go into the WHISC, and come out brainwashed into terrorists (by being “trained in the mindset of war”)?** Of course not. These people are already officers in their respective national militaries when they enter the SOA/WHISC. These militaries are run by governments friendly to the US and its interests (I don’t believe any Sandinistas were accepted into the courses), and which were already carrying out terror campaigns against the civilian populations. The SOA, by providing training to officers, merely helps that terror campaign become more effective. Which is still no better. > [@](#): > > **What does capitalism have to do with this? “Building an empire” sounds more like what the Soviet Union was trying to in eastern Europe than the United States in South America.** Capitalism has everything to do with it. Britain, France and Spain have been capitalist countries for centuries - the drive for profits led them to colonize America, Africa, and many parts of Asia for the raw materials found there. Just because the US threw off the yoke of colonial oppression in 1776 doesn’t mean they somehow magically transformed capitalism into a system that didn’t require expansion beyond national borders to realize profit. The Spanish-American War in 1898 was imperialist expansion in the classical sense, but the necessity exerting political and economic influence in independent countries in order to guarantee the continued supply of profitable cash crops (at the expense of real democracy and the needs of the general population) has in no way lessened over the subsequent century. **Weirddave** wrote: > [@](#): > > **Last time he was in town, Ex-tank and I went to the range to shoot at targets. He showed me a better grip than I had been using for firing a pistol, more comfortable, steady and accurate. Now, if I take it into my head to go shoot, say, John Corrado (snip) and am able to do so effectively because of the grip the Ex-Tank showed me, is Ex-Tank to blame? He certainly had no idea that I was planning moderatoricide when he demonstrated it. How is he to blame in any way?** Good question. If, say, you had exhibited homicidal tendencies in general in the past - talking about it, settinig up situations where it actually looked like you were going to take somebody out but backing out at the last minute saying you were only joking, etc. etc., and **ExTank** was aware of this, then I’d certainly hold him responsible to a degree for showing you how to better wield a gun. On the other hand, if you exhibited no homicidal tendencies at all and suddenly one day just snapped and took somebody out after **ExTank** had showed you how to use a gun, then I wouldn’t hold him responsible. He had no more idea than the rest of us that you were going to do that. The US is not completely unaware of what’s going on in Central America. Not only that, it has consciously chosen sides in the civil wars that have raged across those countries in the past several decades. And it has offered military training to the military of the side it supports. Therefore I hold the US responsible for training terrorists. By this I do not mean that they made terrorists out of otherwise normal people, but that they offered training to people who were already terrorists and had learned that in fighting against a civilian population. > [@](#): > > **So if we followed a communist system, we would react how? Like the Soviets in Chezckolsovakia? In Afghanistan? Like Cuba exporting soldiers all over the globe to brushfire wars? What is your point here?** My point is that the drive for profits underpins the logic of the system. If we followed a _real_ communist system in which the goal was meeting actual human need instead of generating profits, the poltical and economic interference we see happening now would be rendered unnecessary. > [@](#): > > **Nations don’t have friends, they have interests, no matter what stripe they are politically.** Which is why I support the abolition of nations. > [@](#): > > **I would argue that the massive civillian and government sponsored humanatarian aid that the U.S. is justifibly famous for is a direct outgrowth of that same capitalistic mindset you blame for so much of the world’s evils. It’s only when individual needs are more than met that one can look around to see where the excess may be needed.** I would argue that the continued existence of poverty here in the US, alongside unemployment, homelessness, and almost 50 million people who have no access to even the most basic health insurance, shows that capitalism has utterly failed to meet individual needs in the first place. **RickJay** and I conversed thus: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Have you burned Canadian towns to the ground and mutilated, raped, or slaughtered the inhabitants for supporting the government that overthrew the one you liked? > > **If I did, would Albany, NY be a terrorist training base?** If there were a civil war already going on in Canada, and you were fighting on the side supported by the United States against civilians, at which time you were shipped to Albany for training, then yes, I would argue that Albany housed a training base for terrorists. The SOA is doing all those things; Albany is doing none. That I know of, anyway. Finally, **Blackclaw** said: > [@](#): > > **The school simply doesn’t teach terrorist tactics. It teaches guerrilla war tactics.** Which are then taken home and used against civilian populations by people who were already fighting that same civilian population. Ergo, by **RickJay** ’s definition > [@](#): > > **most terrorism is just applying MILITARY acts to CIVILIAN targets** the SOA trains terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/54 "2001-09-27T14:39:17Z")
Olent, can we PLEASE leave the communism/capitalism out of it? Most of the people in these countries, the ones who are attracted to various movements, have no idea what communism is. The reason they are so desparate-in the past-is that they were starving. Spend a few days without food or shelter, leaving in squalor, and see if YOU don’t feel like lashing out at someone. Okay, maybe it’s NOT quite a school of terrorism. But the fact is, the majority of people there have turned out to be notorious human rights abusers, not to mention that some of the tactics taught WERE that of torture and such. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/55 "2001-09-27T14:41:15Z")
[Terry Jones] There you go, bringing Class into it. [/Terry Jones] ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/56 "2001-09-27T14:43:05Z")
Who me? I don’t think it’s class, just hunger. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/57 "2001-09-27T14:47:24Z")
It was a “Holy Grail” reference. You were Terry Jones to **Olent** ’s Michael Palin. :rolleyes: I thought memorizing that movie was a prerequisite to joining the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/58 "2001-09-27T14:52:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > **Olentzero, if only we had trained Lenin at the SOA everything would be alright. _sigh_ Well, a shame we can’t undo that.** _snort_ Lenin wouldn’t have touched the SOA with a hundred-foot pole. > [@](#): > > \*\*Now we are linking soldiers and terrorists explicitly. Good one, man. > > Fuck off.\*\* As **Valkyrie** is wont to say: “Ooh, _ouch_!” Soldiers and terrorists may share the same background of military training (I’d argue they do more often than not) but that does not mean all soldiers are therefore terrorists. Most soldiers don’t see themselves at war with much of anything unless there’s actual fighting going on. McVeigh saw himself at war with the US government, hence he blew up the Murrah Federal Building. Why did he see himself at war with the government? 'Cos the arguments of the right-wing lunatic fringe militias made sense to him. bin Laden sees himself as at war with the US - **and for more reasons than some ideological conflict between fundamentalist Islam and Western-style progressivism!** Nor is he the only one with that point of view. The US has been fucking around in the Middle East just as badly as it has been in Central America. Hence the bombings of the WTC in '93 and of American bases and embassies throughout the Middle East. And, of course, September 11th. And while bin Laden didn’t actually go to school at the SOA, the same situation applies to him as to the SOA graduates. He was a terrorist before the CIA recruited him in the Afghan war, and their involvement/training/money and guns helped him become a more effective terrorist. > [@](#): > > \*\*But don’t you see, dropzone, the first premise IS “America is bad.” What other kind of conclusion do you expect from such a starting point? \*\* 'S not my first premise. My first premise is “Capitalism is bad”. There is a lot that’s positive and negative about America, but those things aren’t uniquely American, either. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/59 "2001-09-27T14:52:36Z")
Nope, never seen it, sorry. :o I HAVE seen the History Channel video about the Crusades narrated by Terry Jones, if that helps? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959/60 "2001-09-27T14:54:07Z")
Well, no, not at all. You see, there’s this scene… Nah, you’d have to see it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-on-terrorism-shut-down-the-school-of-the-americas/83959.md?page=4)