# War with IRAN! No! No! HELL No! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 26, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655 "2003-05-26T23:00:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/281 "2003-05-30T06:07:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > DID YOU ANSWER MY FUCKING QUESTION ZENSTER?!? DO YOU ALWAYS TYPE IN CAPSLOCK? DID YOU FORGET TO TAKE YOUR RITALIN THIS EVENING!!? > > Jeez, dude, get a grip. **minty green** , I’d appreciate it if you would be so kind as to fuck off, preferably sooner than later. Your quoted post (shown above) contains almost the same exact number of caps as _all of my posts in this thread combined_. This sort of crap is noxious at best and immature at least. Please grow the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/282 "2003-05-30T06:18:12Z")
Ooooh. Catfight. (They’re actually quibbling on caps! Call your friends!) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/283 "2003-05-30T06:29:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\ ***minty green** , I’d appreciate it if you would be so kind as to fuck off, preferably sooner than later. > > Your quoted post (shown above) contains almost the same exact number of caps as _all of my posts in this thread combined_. This sort of crap is noxious at best and immature at least. > > Please grow the fuck up. \*\* Um…Zen…I think that was the point. Be careful you don’t get whooshed there. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/284 "2003-05-30T06:39:25Z")
Yo, Dog, Can Z actually get banned for that? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/285 "2003-05-30T06:53:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > \*\*Yo, Dog, > > Can Z actually get banned for that? \*\* What planet are you from, pinhead? ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/286 "2003-05-30T07:02:02Z")
How on this green earth does my occassional use of caps equate to a post composed almost entirely of caps? **minty** has got his leaves all crushed about my use of emphasis? Who the fuck is this guy, the Font Police[sup]™[/sup]? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/287 "2003-05-30T07:16:12Z")
\>\>\>What planet are you from, pinhead?\<\<\< The Cynic apparently doesn’t like to be called “dog” in this incarnation. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/288 "2003-05-30T07:17:50Z")
…his minions are amok… ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/289 "2003-05-30T08:09:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quixotic78 \* > \*\*Please Google the phrase “No True Scotsman” and then return to the discussion. > > Just out of curiosity… when exactly did America’s soldiers become the flawless moral specimens they are today? > > \*\* Wait a sec, you’re attempting to thrust a HUGE strawman into the debate. I am well aware of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy, what I am saying is that times and attitudes have changed ( for the better, IMHO ). Pointing to what the United States armed forces did 20 years ago, or 30, or 90 or 200 is immaterial. America’s soldiers are not “flawless moral specimens”, but they are a product of our culture. As I mentioned earlier, two million German women were raped during and after the fall of Berlin by the Russians. Such a tradgedy hasen’t happened, and won’t happen, in Bagdhad, because the average U.S. soldier dosen’t have the same attitude towards the population they have beaten as was present in the Russian troops of 1945. What is your point, exactly? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > For many terrorists, they believe they ARE at war and they apparently didn’t get the memo that Weirddave and a great many others believe these types of tactics are now verboten even during wartime. They still believe, as the US once did and may again at some point, that civilians are legitimate targets. > > The military capabilities of the average terrorist organization are far more limited than the Allies during WWII. Precision strikes against modern militaries/militarially protected government infrastructures are simply not possible for them. It strikes me as pretty damn unfair that you’re demanding a disenfranchised group of people who are AT WAR, arguably with pretty damn good reason, oppressed should be held to the same standards of precision and minimal civilian casualties as the most capable and well-equipped military force on the planet. The only weapon they have is terrorism. If they succeed undoubtedly textbooks two hundred years from now will call them “the father of our country” and gloss over the fact that they used tactics which were considered absolutely beyond the pale and would have gotten them hung from the nearest yardarm if they had ever come into custody of the forces they were at war with. Well, yes, the winners write the history books, it has ever been so. Usually you have to dig deeper than that to really understand the core issues of the conflict. Nevertheless, I think your main point is that Al-Queda and their ilk view themselves as freedom fighters, utilizing whatever means necessary to achieve their goals, no? Unfortunately, I can’t give them a pass on their methods as you seem to be doing. ( for the sake of arguement, it seems, tell me if I’m wrong ) Terrorists use terror precisely because they don’t have a huge popular base from which to work. They are fringe players, trying to be big shots. They don’t have a country to work from, they don’t have majority support, so they resort to terrorist bombings and similar tactics. Should we ( The Civilized World ) give them a pass simply because they believe that they are “freedom fighters utilizing the only means available”? I say NO. Finally, several people have brought up the point that I characterized terrorists as targeting civilian targets over military ones as some kind of divine law, and the fact that terrorists have attacked military targets as well as civilian ones as a flaw in my reasoning. Personally, I think you’re being delibertly obtuse, but I will elaborate for the sake of accuracy. The goal of a terrorist group is to make their oponent abandon a particular policy. To that end, they may attack military targets as well as civilian ones. The effect they wish to create dosen’t change, however. Soldiers have loved ones at home who don’t want them killed, just as civilians do. If enough random soldiers are killed, their relations may bring pressure on their government to change policy. In any event, the tactic is the same: A terrorist group is not strong enough to get it’s way, so they use whatever means necessary to try and make the oposing society change theirs. Is that simple enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/290 "2003-05-30T11:29:28Z")
Dave > [@](#): > > Pointing to what the United States armed forces did 20 years ago, or 30, or 90 or 200 is immaterial then why should you point to what Saddam Hussein has done in the past? I know what Saddam has done has been terrible, but if we are going to condemn Saddam’s government, its only fair to point out that the U.S. (and the U.K. government) has done some things that it shouldn’t be proud of. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/291 "2003-05-30T12:04:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\* > Finally, several people have brought up the point that I characterized terrorists as targeting civilian targets over military ones as some kind of divine law, and the fact that terrorists have attacked military targets as well as civilian ones as a flaw in my reasoning. Personally, I think you’re being delibertly obtuse, but I will elaborate for the sake of accuracy. The goal of a terrorist group is to make their oponent abandon a particular policy. To that end, they may attack military targets as well as civilian ones. The effect they wish to create dosen’t change, however. Soldiers have loved ones at home who don’t want them killed, just as civilians do. If enough random soldiers are killed, their relations may bring pressure on their government to change policy. In any event, the tactic is the same: A terrorist group is not strong enough to get it’s way, so they use whatever means necessary to try and make the oposing society change theirs. Is that simple enough for you? \*\* Ummmm…yummy. Waffles!!! ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/292 "2003-05-30T13:08:23Z")
“targeting” civilians. In battles where you have one army amassed on one hill and another on the other hill, civilian casualties would be minimal, assuming they got out of dodge. However, when you’re dropping bombs from the air, fighting in a city, etc, civilians will in fact die. Everybody knows this. What happens is that the military target is deemed to be more important for the overall objective, and that you’ll attempt to ‘minimize’ collateral damage because you’re the good guys. But when you’re dropping a bomb on a target and aware that there are civilians present, claiming that you’re not targeting civilians is arguing semantics. If they’re in the cross hairs, they’re literally targeted - even if your **objective** is behind them. And yes, I understand that bad guys intentionally placing stuff in residential neighborhoods etc etc etc. The Anthrax vaccination lab is located next to a residential area, too, about two miles away from where I’m sitting. Had terrorists decided to blow that up, there’d be civilian deaths as well. Point being - you (the collective military decision making body) have determined that the **military objective** is important enough to warrent (whatever) level of ‘collateral’ damage. I’m not quibbling with that process. Hopefullly you’ll understand that the civilians in question will most likely feel quite targeted and not appreciate the nuances of the characterization ‘acceptable collateral damage’ vs targeted. But be aware that both sides make these assesments. And they may, indeed draw the line about ‘acceptable collateral damage’ in a different place. Yes, I’m glad that we draw it closer to ‘none’ vs. ‘any amount is ok’. but it’s shades, not black/white. Do I think that we are ‘better’ morally than the person who orders the Suicide bomber to attack a pizza parlor? Sure. but that’s not the point. The point that was being made, was from the perspective of \*\* the civilian\*\* in the crosshairs (even if the ‘real’ target was behind him) ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/293 "2003-05-30T13:22:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > The goal of a terrorist group is to make their oponent abandon a particular policy. Sounds like all those times we bombed Iraq and Yugoslavia during the 90s. > [@](#): > > To that end, they may attack military targets as well as civilian ones. Ditto. Remember those trains and bridges we blew up in Serbia? The power plants in Iraq? > [@](#): > > In any event, the tactic is the same: A terrorist group is not strong enough to get it’s way, so they use whatever means necessary to try and make the oposing society change theirs. Is that simple enough for you? So then the ultimate difference between us and the terrorists is that we have the strength to get our way, and they do not? Note: I am _not_ saying that the American military engages in acts of terrorism. I’m just saying that your approach to distinguishing us from the bad guys doesn’t really distinguish a whole lot. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/294 "2003-05-30T13:51:53Z")
Minty: A terrorist intentionally commits atrocities and maximizes damage and suffering for the purpose of bringing attention to the cause he/she espouses. A conventional military does none of these things. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/295 "2003-05-30T14:03:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*A terrorist intentionally commits atrocities and maximizes damage and suffering for the purpose of bringing attention to the cause he/she espouses. > > A conventional military does none of these things. \*\* If you’re on the receiving end, it’s difficult to see much difference. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/296 "2003-05-30T14:12:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*If you’re on the receiving end, it’s difficult to see much difference. \*\* Not true. Terrorists don’t bring aid, and put themselves at risk to protect civilians. Our forces don’t target civilians. They don’t use them as hostages. Any sane being would much rather be captured by a conventional military, signatory to the Geneva Accords than captured by terrorists. The difference is extreme. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/297 "2003-05-30T14:18:31Z")
FWIW, I find Scylla’s explanation to be a great improvement over Weirddave’s, though there are still a number of terrorist and military acts (and goals) that don’t fit the paradigm very neatly. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/298 "2003-05-30T14:45:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > \*\*\>\>\>What planet are you from, pinhead?\<\<\< > The Cynic apparently doesn’t like to be called “dog” in this incarnation. \*\* Dude, what are you talking about? 😕 I din’t call you a pinhead, Demostylus did. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/299 "2003-05-30T14:52:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Not true. Terrorists don’t bring aid, and put themselves at risk to protect civilians. Our forces don’t target civilians. They don’t use them as hostages. > > Any sane being would much rather be captured by a conventional military, signatory to the Geneva Accords than captured by terrorists. > > The difference is extreme. \*\* I can see exactly where you’re coming from, **Scylla** - my perspective is probably much the same as yours. It’s when you try to see things from the other side that things get murky. Our guys put themselves at risk, their guys sacrifice themselves. Our guys don’t deliberately target civilians, but if it’s necessary for the military objective, it’s acceptable as a side effect. Their guys deliberately target civilians _because_ it’s necessary for the military objective. Our guys are nominally bound by the Geneva convention, but often fail to follow it. Their guys aren’t bound, and do the same. The differences are in degree only. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/300 "2003-05-30T14:58:36Z")
Demo: > [@](#): > > The differences are in degree only. The differences between a butcher and a brain surgeon are in degree only, as are the differences between Hitler and the Terminex man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655.md?page=16)