# War with IRAN! No! No! HELL No! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 26, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655 "2003-05-26T23:00:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/341 "2003-05-31T05:10:44Z")
> [@](#): > > As far as I was concerned, deposing Saddam was plenty of justification for the war, WMD or not. Would _you_ have been willing to die _just_ to get rid of saddam? Other Americans did. Is it ok with you that they were sent to die under false pretenses? It’s not Ok with me. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/342 "2003-05-31T06:04:18Z")
Cynic, you seem to have redeemed yourself after quite a sad period in a public bath. Wow. There’s a pretty big divide here, and a really good debate. Maybe we should draw up teams and play Intraweb _Age of Empires, Age of Kings_® enhancement pack? I call dibs on Turks. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/343 "2003-05-31T06:07:30Z")
…please, I’m sorry for the hamstering. My wife just pointed out we are flying far afield of a constructive forum. Is it possible to return to a pro forma debate? This rhetoric is most distressing. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/344 "2003-05-31T16:20:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*Exsqueeze me, but nuclear tipped cruise missiles were specifically designed to take out enemy ICBM locations. A hardened missile silo requires a direct hit within less than 100 meters with a proper sized nuke. ICBMs (at 500 meters?) did not have that sort of accuracy. Our cruise missiles have an accuracy of 10 meters. > > This is one of the principal technological advances that left the Soviets out in the cold. We stopped targeting military sites with weapons that could backwash into civilian populations. Instead, we refined our missile accuracy to the point where decapitating strikes were possible. This is one of many elements that won us the cold war. > > Yes, MAD worked for decades but we have, to some degree, progressed beyond that. No thanks to the current administration’s ridiculous lusting after mini-nukes and “negation” of low earth orbits. \*\* Zenster, thanks for this informative and interesting post. Could you provide a cite? It’s not that I doubt your word - I just like studying the history of nuclear strategy and suchlike, and was hoping you could recommend some good books. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/345 "2003-05-31T16:32:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Minty: > > A terrorist intentionally commits atrocities and maximizes damage and suffering for the purpose of bringing attention to the cause he/she espouses. > > A conventional military does none of these things. \*\* But by your definition, then, the bombing of Dresden was a terrorist act. And none of this nonsense about how we can’t judge anything that happened before I hit puberty, because it’s not the question at hand. The question is, has anyone given a definition of “terrorism” which doesn’t include Dresden? (This raises another question, incidentally- how far away is the moral horizon? 5 years? 10? We’ve already heard 20 years described as being beyond our reach.) To draw an analogy, you can argue that slavery in the American South cannot be judged by modern standards of morality- but no sane person would claim that magically it wasn’t slavery. Similarly, if you want to claim that we can’t judge the terrorism of the 1940’s by modern standards, fine- admit that back then, people thought that terrorism was a legitimate tool of a military. But if you want to claim that it wasn’t actually terrorism, I expect a legitimate definition of terrorism which excludes what the U.S. did. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/346 "2003-05-31T16:50:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > OK, RT, I’ll try to put this in small words. > > As far as I was concerned, deposing Saddam was plenty of justification for the war, WMD or not. WMD was the excuse Bush used to try and get UN cooperation and to offer a broader justification, which was stupid if he knew there weren’t any, but that’s neither here nor there because even if Iraq never posessed a single WMD, ever, _we were still justified in deposing him because he’s an evil man_. Now, I realize that you already lean so far to the left that your earlobe draggs on the ground, so I might as well knock you all the way over. I would support the U.S. ( hopefully in conjunction with a UN that gets off it’s ass and realizes that talk is not action and usually acomplishes little ) _doing the same in other parts of the world_ **depending on the exact situation in each specific case**. Is that clear enough? Syria? no. Iran? no. Congo? Damn straight, they’re reverting to cannibalism down there and the UN has 700 troops in the area that can do nothing but sit in their compound and watch the atrocities. Rowanda? I don’t know enough about the situation to say. OK, here’s the deal. I also believe that we should engage in military interventions, here and there, for humanitarian purposes. But that’s not why Bush told the UN we wanted to invade Iraq, it’s not why Bush told the American people we had to invade Iraq, and it’s not why Bush & Co. actually invaded Iraq - because if that had been their purpose, they might’ve actually taken some time to plan what they were going to do with Iraq once they’d kicked Saddam’s butt. The absence of any sort of decent plan put at risk, and continues to put at risk, whether or not our intervention will actually wind up improving the lives of average Iraqis. And if you don’t make things any better for the people of Iraq, then you’ve violated another nation’s sovereignty for: nothing. That’s serious shit. And this is the problem for people like you who think, “regardless of Bush’s motives, the main thing is that Iraqis are free of Saddam.” They may or may not wind up better off as a result, and it’s nearly certain that having done this will hinder our ability to do good elsewhere in the world, whether it’s dealing with the political and military risks of Iran, or attempting humanitarian interventions in less geopolitically important places such as the Congo. If humanitarian motives are what moves us, here’s what we might have done instead: 1. Take another year to show what we could do to improve the lives of Afghanis. 2. Involve our NATO friends (the UN probably wouldn’t be the right group) in a discussion of when the lives of citizens of a country are so hellish due to internal causes (whether due to dictators, breakdown of order, or whatever) that Western military intervention is called for, and what needs to be done afterward to make sure the military intervention results in a better life for the people the intervention is supposed to benefit. 3. Make a list, in conjunction with NATO, of the nastiest half-dozen or so countries to live in. 4. Pick one, and _plan_ how the rescue is going to work over time, to make sure it goes as right as it possibly can. You want there to be more rescues, you want the first one to work at least halfway well. Obviously, there are some situations where we’d have to make a very fast decision on whether to jump in (the Congo now, Rwanda back in the mid-90s) because to wait even a few months puts us too late to prevent the worst of the carnage. But this’ll do for the places that are changing slowly (Burma, Iraq, etc.). Bringing us back to topic, I notice that none of your excellent speech bore in any way on the subject of appeasement. I’ll say something about _that_ in small words: as a liberal, I’d like to see the US do some good in the world. But I’ve seen enough attempts to do good actually make things worse. If being skeptical and asking questions to find out whether or not the present instance might be one of those times (and getting back no good answers) constitutes ‘appeasement’, then you’ve got a funny dictionary. > [@](#): > > The point is that Globalization is the brightest hope for the future of this sorry ass world, and the first world countries need to start kicking some ass and standing up to say “Enough! No more torture, no more terror, ALL people have the right to live their lives in peace”. To take a word with as many different possible interpretations as ‘globalization’ has, and to say something like that about it, is just plain stupid. Whatever sort of globalization it is that you favor, there are no guarantees that that’s what globalization will ultimately turn out to mean. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/347 "2003-05-31T17:16:35Z")
While I’m asking for book recommendations, Mtgman, could you recommend a good book on the American Revolution? I’ve always wanted to read a better history of it than the stuff I got in school. (Which was typically the familiar “The British lost because they were tea-drinking pansies” stuff.) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/348 "2003-05-31T17:25:31Z")
Hi Ben, Might I recommend one to you and Dopers in general: _The People’s History of The United States: 1492 to Present_. I’ve also heard the author, Howard Zinn, speak on it – it is a really interesting view of the US. Has yielded a little insight into this very debate. Another that has more to do with the OP is _The Iron Triangle: Inside the Secret World of the Carlyle Group_. ---
**Author:** ![BeatenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@BeatenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeatenMan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/349 "2003-05-31T17:43:24Z")
Show you are helping America in the war on terrorism. = America leaves us alone. This is a simple problem with a simple solution. If you can’t come out against nut crazed religious terrorist killings, you are a world government that should cease to exist. And president Bush will see to it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/350 "2003-05-31T19:05:28Z")
I don’t know is this is news to you or not, **Beat** , but to a lot of people, and I do mean a _lot_ of people, groups we call “terrorist” (i.e., Hezbollah, or any of a number of Palestinian groups) have enormous sympathy and support in the Middle East and beyond. To thier way of thinking, these groups are no more illegitimate than our own Sons of Liberty. I make no claim as to the validity of thier belief, merely that it is so. There are no doubt groups within Iran who offer support and sympathy to such as these. To presume that such support from Iran is a “state policy” is to presume a unification of purpose for the Iranian government that is probably illusory, given what we know about the internal dissension within Iran. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/351 "2003-05-31T21:21:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Merijeek \* > First of all, that’s totally irrelevant to what I said. I didn’t bring up WMDs, and I didn’t bring up the causes of the war. I disagree. It’s completely relevant, whether or not you brought it up. If the U.S.A. were to construct a nice, big hospital right next to Andrews AFB, what would be wrong with that? Nothing. > [@](#): > > This is from a strictly military standpoint. A military is there for the purpose of waging war. For some nations it’s a matter of waging war to defensively, for others it’s a matter of waging a war offensively. For most, it’s whatever the present administration feels like doing at any given moment. We are living in a world where national sovereignty is taken very seriously - _too_ seriously, in some ways (I’ve never understood the logic of more or less forcing Africa to live with the European colonial borders, for instance), but seriously enough that no nation need reckon its borders and sovereignty in jeopardy, except under the most extreme provocation. If an invading nation is going to make up provocations, the invaded nation is hardly responsible for the casualties inflicted, regardless of the placement of its assets. ---
**Author:** ![BeatenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@BeatenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeatenMan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/352 "2003-05-31T22:14:02Z")
I looked up the Sons Of Liberty on the internet I saw no mention of commiting terroists acts on muslim countries. You can find problems but you have no soultions Elucidator . Here is a solution that will work. If you want to plot to kill americans be prepared for America to come visit you and hunt you down or have people who side with americans hunt you down and take power. We have no other choice. We are not going to be victims of further terrorist attacks. To just say well it’s too complex to do anything about it and say we deserve it because we supported the shaw isn’t going to cut it. Understand this, we are not going to let these people kill us. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/353 "2003-05-31T22:33:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BeatenMan \* > **If you want to plot to kill americans be prepared for America to come visit you and hunt you down or have people who side with americans hunt you down and take power.** When did Saddam plot to kill Americans? ---
**Author:** ![BeatenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@BeatenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeatenMan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/354 "2003-05-31T23:21:00Z")
He plotted to kill george Bush senior. That is reason enough. It is known saddam gave money to terrorist groups. Without the money terrorist groups wouldn’t be near the threat. If Saddam was to help the usa with the war on terror he would still be in power. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/355 "2003-05-31T23:28:07Z")
**BeatenMan** said > [@](#): > > To just say well it’s too complex to do anything about it and say we deserve it because we supported the shaw isn’t going to cut it. I forget. Was it _Artie or George Bernard_ we supported? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/356 "2003-05-31T23:35:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BeatenMan \* > He plotted to kill george Bush senior. That is reason enough. Not ten years later, it isn’t. The USA has plotted to kill a lot of leaders in recent decades. Sounds to me like another case of “we’re big enough to get away with it, and they’re not.” BTW, can you provide a link to an account of the assassination plot on GHWB? I’m not contesting that such plans were made, but I honestly don’t remember hearing anything about it at the time. And it’s been bandied about a lot on this board since GWB started saber-rattling at Iraq, without any details that I’ve seen. > [@](#): > > It is known saddam gave money to terrorist groups. Without the money terrorist groups wouldn’t be near the threat. Wasn’t that just about the funds to the surviving relatives of suicide bombers? While that’s still a bad thing, it doesn’t make the bombings possible. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/357 "2003-05-31T23:51:11Z")
I have read, and have posted regarding, other viewpoints as to the alleged “plot” to assassinate George I. Boiled down, it comes to accepting the word of Kuwaiti intelligence, a leap of faith I am reluctant to make. Very reluctant. For more on this, look up Seymour Hersh’s article in the _New Yorker_ from a couple months back. That the Bushistas take the word of the Kuwaitis as though it came from a burning bush is not surprising. As to the payments, **Arty** has it right: Saddam was making a gesture of solidarity in order to enhance his standing in the Middle East as one who was deeply concerned with the plight of the Palestinians. Oddly, it seems likely it didn’t fool them, but it worked on us. ---
**Author:** ![BeatenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@BeatenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeatenMan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/358 "2003-06-01T00:24:25Z")
BeatenMan said ## quote: ## To just say well it’s too complex to do anything about it and say we deserve it because we supported the shaw isn’t going to cut it. I am from Texas, Shaw of Iran is correct just ask George W. Bush ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/359 "2003-06-01T02:27:43Z")
Texas, huh? Sure that’s not the P’shaw? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/360 "2003-06-01T02:33:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > While I’m asking for book recommendations, Mtgman, could you recommend a good book on the American Revolution? [Angel in the Whirlwind](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140275002/qid=1054435022/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-7322465-8291168?v=glance&s=books) by Benson Bobrick. A very nice overview of the Revolution, and highly readable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655.md?page=19)