# War with IRAN! No! No! HELL No! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 26, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655 "2003-05-26T23:00:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/361 "2003-06-01T02:50:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*But by your definition, then, the bombing of Dresden was a terrorist act. \*\* I don’t really see how. How was the bombing of Dresden an attempt at getting attention? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/362 "2003-06-01T02:57:36Z")
**elucidator** - Hersh had [a number of pieces](http://www.newyorker.com/archive/previous/?030602frprsp_previous1) in the New Yorker in March and April. Any help in narrowing it down? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/363 "2003-06-01T03:29:10Z")
Try this, **RTFirefly** : [http://www.newyorker.com/archive/content/?020930fr\_archive02](http://www.newyorker.com/archive/content/?020930fr_archive02) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/364 "2003-06-01T07:07:09Z")
Imposing order. All this sounds so very simple in a vacuum. The reality, as Afghanistan shows, is rather uglier. I personally am not very favorable to “humanitarian” interventions in Africa for the historical complications and abuses that have gone along with them. I am afraid some butchery may indeed be necessary for people to tire of it and be ready for peace. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > What I mean is that in countries like the Congo, where rule of law has completely broken down and basically you have anarchy, it is entirely apropriate for first world nations to militarily occupy the territory and impose order, allowing that societry to reemerge as a society of law- the occupying (probobly UN) forces would then leave. How to actually pull this off is another question, one for which I have no easy, across the board answer, but I am not opposed to using superior force to run bandits off and protect innocent civilians. Notice that at no point have I advocated imposing our set of laws onto these other countries, but I feel that basic freedoms must be guaranteed in the formation of the new government. Every individual on the planet should be guaranteed freedom of religion and the right to “life, liberty and the persuit of happiness”. If the people want a theocracy, a monarchy a socialist state or a democracy, that’s up to them, as long as basic individual freedoms are protected. If you view that as “imposing western values” upon the world, well, I can live with that. The only “value” I am “imposing” is the right of individual human beings to be free. Assuming that is the case, anything goes. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/365 "2003-06-01T07:43:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\*Imposing order. > > All this sounds so very simple in a vacuum. > > The reality, as Afghanistan shows, is rather uglier. > > I personally am not very favorable to “humanitarian” interventions in Africa for the historical complications and abuses that have gone along with them. > > I am afraid some butchery may indeed be necessary for people to tire of it and be ready for peace. \*\* Collonsbury, I join you in despair that we can do anything, but does that relieve us( the fat, happy Western world ) from trying? Our leisure is built upon these people’s pain and death. Don’t we owe them at least the effort? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/366 "2003-06-01T07:49:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*Collonsbury, I join you in despair that we can do anything, but does that relieve us( the fat, happy Western world ) from trying? Our leisure is built upon these people’s pain and death. Don’t we owe them at least the effort? \*\* Uh, ‘our leisure is built upon these people’s pain and death’? What the fuck are you babbling about? Ditch the White Man’s Burden, then try again. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/367 "2003-06-01T11:04:42Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong, **Weirddave** , but wasn’t our leisure built on the pain and death of those we hauled over here, rather than the ones we left behind? Sounds like you’re making a case for reparations here, rather than intervention there. Of course, assorted European powers had African colonies into the mid-20th century, but they abandoned slavery well before we did. Their moral obligations presumably have a different shape than ours. > [@](#): > > Imposing order. > > All this sounds so very simple in a vacuum. > > The reality, as Afghanistan shows, is rather uglier. **Collounsbury** , given that 19th century Europeans were able to colonize Africa, but Afghanistan has been a much tougher mountain to conquer in the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries alike, I don’t think our difficulties in Afghanistan necessarily imply anything about the potential outcomes in Africa. On second thought, I take part of that back. To the extent that how things have gone in Afghanistan reflects on our lack of knowledge, planning, and commitment, that part would carry over to Africa all too well. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/368 "2003-06-01T12:01:06Z")
First, Brutus, shut the fuck up, you’re a a second rate moron who prob should be in the Hague had not an accident of birth placed you elsewhere. Second, WD, a try is one thing, but not if it is counterproductive. Situations like Somali need different things. Congo, same thing. Fund a SA led intervention perhaps, but American soldiers in Congo is a recipe for disaster. They’re not trained nor prepared for such actions, and I see no reason for either Congolais or Americans to die from the inevitable misunderstandings and sheer weight of the problems of Congo. Zero, none, nada. Already in Iraq I see the poor prepartion US troops have for this kind of duty, which requires people trained in as much diplomacy as fighting. The US military is a fine fighting machine. It is a second rate peace keeping organization. No shame in that, perhaps one can not do both. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/369 "2003-06-01T15:38:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*Uh, ‘our leisure is built upon these people’s pain and death’? What the fuck are you babbling about? Ditch the White Man’s Burden, then try again. \*\* Y’know, I have no “White Man’s Burdon”, you’re talking about me like I was one of those ultra-liberal morons, but denying that a good deal of the prosperity and peace of the first world is built on exploiting the third world in a lot of ways is moronic. I’m not pointing a finger and screaming “J’accuze!”, and it has ever been thus, but I’m also not going to ignore the fact that affordable Nikes are made in factories that would cause OSHA to have a stroke. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/370 "2003-06-01T17:18:58Z")
Do you like chocolate, **Brutus**? [Take a look at how we get it.](http://www.stopchildlabor.org/internationalchildlabor/chocolate.htm) Enough pain and death for you? Take a look at how we get [diamonds](http://www.anti-slaverysociety.addr.com/diamonds.htm) while you’re at it. I lived in Liberia for two years and I saw child slaves. They worked in diamond mines, on plantations and in factories sitting at sewing machines for 12 hours a day. There is no market for diamonds and rubber in Liberia. American companies make a ton of money from products that they _know_ come from slave and child labor. African slave labor helps the American economy. Believe it. ---
**Author:** ![BeatenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@BeatenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeatenMan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/371 "2003-06-01T20:24:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Do you like chocolate, **Brutus**? [Take a look at how we get it.](http://www.stopchildlabor.org/internationalchildlabor/chocolate.htm) Enough pain and death for you? > > Take a look at how we get [diamonds](http://www.anti-slaverysociety.addr.com/diamonds.htm) while you’re at it. > > I lived in Liberia for two years and I saw child slaves. They worked in diamond mines, on plantations and in factories sitting at sewing machines for 12 hours a day. There is no market for diamonds and rubber in Liberia. American companies make a ton of money from products that they _know_ come from slave and child labor. African slave labor helps the American economy. Believe it. \*\* I think Liberia would be better off if they didn’t sell anything to the west. Nobody would be doing anything so they wouldn’t need slave labor. No work, no slaves. So the people would starve to death like in other parts of africa that have no raw materials to sell but at least they would be free. It is totally americas fault they have slavery there. We can’t blame the government of Liberia. I even feel guilty even though my wife has a fake diamond. So what this stuff is put on the world market it’s all americas fault. If these kids were not slaves they would be going to the top schools and colleges and driving fancy cars lighting cigars with hundred dollar bills and living the good life. Boy do I feel guilty that I am inslaving these good people. It’s all my fault.😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/372 "2003-06-01T21:53:39Z")
Do I detect a note of sarcasm? Yes, I do believe it. A definite note of sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/373 "2003-06-01T23:03:44Z")
And the American corporations have only one choice: to use slave labor or not do business with Liberia at all? That’s certainly news to me, **BeatenMan**. At any rate, sarcasm isn’t a good replacement for thought and solid argument. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/374 "2003-06-01T23:17:10Z")
> [@](#): > > _Beatenman said:_ > We can’t blame the government of Liberia. Funny you should mention the governmet of Liberia. Liberia is currently under the thumb of a tinpot despot named Charles Taylor. Tayor is a brutal psychopath. He not only has killed thousands of his own people, he has been aggressive to surrounding countries as well. I wonder why we haven’t liberated Liberia. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/375 "2003-06-04T02:11:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*[Angel in the Whirlwind](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140275002/qid=1054435022/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-7322465-8291168?v=glance&s=books) by Benson Bobrick. A very nice overview of the Revolution, and highly readable. \*\* Thanks, minty! ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/376 "2003-06-04T02:14:38Z")
No sweat. It’s a very good book, written for a general audience. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/377 "2003-06-04T02:14:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*Actually, what I heard here was that Ben is a drooling idiot who won’t let a little thing like the truth get in the way when he wants to grind his particular axe. C’mon, Ben, surely you can do better than that, no references to the evils of the Crusades or the genocide against Native Americans? It’s all the same thing, bring it all up and apply it to 2003! :rolleyes: \*\* You want 2003? Then what about the Pentagon’s proposal that the U.S. become a state sponsor of terrorism? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=187513](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=187513) ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/378 "2003-06-04T02:17:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > > * * * > > I don’t really see how. How was the bombing of Dresden an attempt at getting attention? \*\* It was an attempt to terrorize the German civilians, so that they would pressure the govt. to change its policies. Sounds like getting attention to me. If you have a different definition of “getting attention,” then it seems to me that the moral difference is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/379 "2003-06-04T02:51:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*It was an attempt to terrorize the German civilians, so that they would pressure the govt. to change its policies. > \*\* I don’t think that’s what it was. Do you have a cite to support that viewpoint, that that was why Dresden was bombed? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/380 "2003-06-04T03:08:29Z")
What other motivation could there be for incinerating a city? What about Hiroshima? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655.md?page=20)