# War with IRAN! No! No! HELL No! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 26, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655 "2003-05-26T23:00:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/101 "2003-05-27T04:43:27Z")
\>\>\>The ones who are trying to kill Americans.\<\<\< I bet you still believe in the boogeyman, too. On what do you base such a broad statement? People largely hate us and the sons of Saladin are just extremely easy to stir. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/102 "2003-05-27T04:49:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\* Kee-rist, **Sam** , we’re not talking rugby here! This is about making people dead! > \*\* Gte off the high horse. By keeping the nations of Middle East in the hands of rent-a-nuts, we are also talking about making people dead. People are suffer and die either way. Horrible, but that’s the way it is. All we do is hope to decide which way leads to the probablility of less people dying, and take into consideration _who_ dies. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/103 "2003-05-27T04:55:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > \*\*Much as I hate to say it, for the future good of humanity, I don’t think theocracy should be allowed in _any_ nation, as it tends to irrevocably muddle both with the religion and the government, to the detriment of both…not to mention the basic rights of the people. > > In short, religion in government is a cage. People should have precisely the same human rights worldwide. If a woman wishes to wear a burqa, that’s one thing. If she will be punished for _not_ wearing one, that’s something I don’t think should be tolerated. > > Globalization is perhaps the most inevitable force in politics and economics today. It will not be stopped. I’d have a lot more hope for a world full of liberal, secular democracies than I would for one full of restrictive theocracies. \*\* Why did “A White Man’s Burden” leap immediately into my thoughts? Allow me a bit of paraphrasing: “Imperialism is perhaps the most inevitable force in politics and economics today. It will not be stopped. We shall confer the blessings of liberty and civilization upon all the rescued peoples.” ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/104 "2003-05-27T05:04:40Z")
> [@](#): > > “Imperialism is perhaps the most inevitable force in politics and economics today. It will not be stopped. We shall confer the blessings of liberty and civilization upon all the rescued peoples.” You intended to be sarcastic, but let me compare your paraphrasing with its diametric opposite: > [@](#): > > “Imperialism is perhaps the most inevitable force in politics and economics today. It will not be stopped. We shall confer the eternal rule of Allah upon all the unbelievers.” I’d rather see your version, honestly. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/105 "2003-05-27T05:07:48Z")
**milroyj:** _“Or uprisings fostered by US influence and funds?” The latter._ And do you imagine that Muslims will just not notice that the US had anything to do with it? Again, the message that is really being received here is not “Don’t fuck with the US, because you won’t get away with it” but “The US can get away with fucking with you, so we will.” _“Which ‘Islamists’?” The ones who are trying to kill Americans. My theory, such as it is, is that we should strive to kill them first._ That’s not an answer. **Which** are they, **where** are they? For God’s sake, man, you don’t set out to kill people pre-emptively based on no better information than some random insinuations and labels. **Ogre:** _Well, from one viewpoint, it’s because with an arc of Western-style governments stretching eventually from Jordan, through Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan, will promote pro-Western ideas enormously. Give people freedom, and watch their lives, in general, get better._ Again, sounds great in theory, has no apparent foundation in reality. After all, the “arc of Western-style governments” that has stretched for the past several decades from Israel through Turkey, India, and Indonesia doesn’t seem to have “promoted pro-Western ideas” as “enormously” as you’re hopefully predicting—and all of those countries have either Muslim majorities or very large Muslim minorities. Unless you ascribe some kind of magic potency to having all the countries in the “arc” geographically contiguous, I fail to see why you think that “pro-Western” outcomes will automatically result. Further, I note that Iran has become much **more** “pro-Western” under its current repressive theocratic government than it was when it overthrew the US-supported Shah and instituted the theocracy. So I really think your theory is much too oversimplified to be a reliable guide to foreign policy. _But more to the point, I hope we don’t actually have to attack. I’d much rather see the people remove Khamenei and Co. from power._ Well, on that at least we can agree. _The trouble is that you consider economic interests to be “imperialism.” I consider them to be perfectly valid._ I don’t understand what you’re getting at here. I certainly do consider economic interests to be “valid”, in and of themselves, and pursued through economic policy. However, if they are considered a justification for an unprovoked attack on another country, I sure as hell do consider that to be imperialism. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/106 "2003-05-27T05:15:05Z")
I believe the last time Muslims invaded a place which is now considered Western civilization and imposed their religion was in the 16th century. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/107 "2003-05-27T05:22:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > \*\*So Tee, > > You apparently think it’s acceptable to have placed these childern in such peril? You think our policy is “on the mark,” according also to D. Rumsfeld? How many of these children have been raped or damaged by the rabble let loose and allowed to pillage by the US military? > > What the fuck? \*\* WTF indeed. _“We have had wars and no fun our whole lives. There is no stability,” she said, weeping._ No, it is not ok for the US military to be “allowing” this, or for outlaws to rape and pillage their way around town, or for their great leader to empty the prisons as a thank you to his people, among his many other episodes of supreme dickheadedness that contributed to the lack of a childhood among the Iraqis. Your cite suggested the danger of the moment is --------------\> women losing freedoms. So I answered that. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/108 "2003-05-27T05:23:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Again, sounds great in theory, has no apparent foundation in reality. After all, the “arc of Western-style governments” that has stretched for the past several decades from Israel through Turkey, India, and Indonesia doesn’t seem to have “promoted pro-Western ideas” as “enormously” as you’re hopefully predicting—and all of those countries have either Muslim majorities or very large Muslim minorities. Unless you ascribe some kind of magic potency to having all the countries in the “arc” geographically contiguous, I fail to see why you think that “pro-Western” outcomes will automatically result. Well, to be honest, it has nothing to do with the areas being contiguous. It has more to do with dealing with several of the worst offenders as far as support of international terrorism goes. Iran supported the US Embassy kidnappings. Their sympathy with terrorism goes back years and despite the fact that Khamenei made nominal pro-US noises, he hated us and idolized the Ayatollah Khomeini, placating us while he pounded the Iranian populace into the ground. Now the Iranian populace appears to be genuinely pro-Western, while Khamenei is showing his true allegiances. It also has to do with the fact that, yes, these are the easier targets. Hopefully, we can get a lot of diplomatic “bang for the buck” out of them without having to take the **much** more difficult political, diplomatic, and economic step of threatening Saudi Arabia or or others. > [@](#): > > I don’t understand what you’re getting at here. I certainly do consider economic interests to be “valid”, in and of themselves, and pursued through economic policy. However, if they are considered a justification for an unprovoked attack on another country, I sure as hell do consider that to be imperialism. Pardon me. What I meant to say is that pursuant to the fact that the world needs petroleum right now like a living organism needs blood, I don’t see the stabilization of the oil supplies to be as much purely economic as politically AND economically strategic. It will end up benefitting the rest of the world too. I assume you were speaking of the oil, anyway. If not, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/109 "2003-05-27T05:34:07Z")
> [@](#): > > I believe the last time Muslims invaded a place which is now considered Western civilization and imposed their religion was in the 16th century. Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with Osama bin Laden’s (and thus al Qaeda’s) 30-year affiliation with the Muslim Brotherhood, whose ideas are (or were, since I’m not sure if MB is still active in its original state) centered on the establishment of a pan-Islamic state with a return to the Caliphate and active military conquest in the tradition of Ottoman expansion. Bin Laden mined the rhetoric of MB extensively for his 1998 manifesto against America and Western democracy in general. Make no mistake, their aims are imperialistic. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/110 "2003-05-27T05:45:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\* > As much as you hate Our President, don’t ya have to give 'im points for gumption? 🙂 \*\* Thats not gumption, thats murder. This isn’t a bunch of postureing. People die in these little games. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Ogre_ > **Indeed, in this particular area. That I remain ogrish toward people whose stated aim is to establish a pan-Arabic and eventually greater Islamic theocracy is not something I see as a fault.** So that gives us the right to go in and establish our own damn pan-Arabic state? I guess since we’re not Muslim it’s okay… > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Ogre_ > **We just can’t have theocracies.** When they start putting _us_ in a theocracy, I’ll agree with you. But I see a bunch of people on the other side of the world in theocracies, and as long as they arn’t sending their armys my way I don’t think that is any of our business. Do you have any idea what an ass you sound like when you imply that the United States has the moral authority to decide the system of government for the whole damn world? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Ogre_ > **Make no mistake, their aims are imperialistic.** Truer words were never spoken. Oh wait, you wern’t talking about the United States, were you? Anyway, I knew this was coming. When George W Bush implies he’s going to take down a country, he’s not going to rest until he has taken over that country. He’s never lied about his intentions. When he starts talking about “regime change”, that is a sure sign that he is not interested in diplomacy, he is interested in overthrowing another country’s government with military force. We saw it in Iraq, we’ll see it again. George W Bush has some sort of Messiah complex, and I am 100% sure that he thinks that he really can “rid the world of evil” by just taking over whatever countries catch his eye. And evil, apparently, means “Islam” This’ll make three wars against three Muslim countries in three years of presidentcy. Doesn’t that concern people? It makes me sick to know that I am in the country that is doing wrong. We are doing the equivelent of invadeing Poland. It is disgusting. I weep for my nation. I weep that this may be the end of the United States as an experiement in freedom. Don’t ever think your country is immune to evil. There is nothing keeping us sane. There is no magical force that will keep our nation within the bounds of moral good. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/111 "2003-05-27T05:47:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\* > As much as you hate Our President, don’t ya have to give 'im points for gumption? 🙂 \*\* Thats not gumption, thats murder. This isn’t a bunch of postureing. People die in these little games. Cowboys arn’t quite so cool when they start killing off your sons and daughters. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Ogre_ > **Indeed, in this particular area. That I remain ogrish toward people whose stated aim is to establish a pan-Arabic and eventually greater Islamic theocracy is not something I see as a fault.** So that gives us the right to go in and establish our own damn pan-Arabic state? I guess since we’re not Muslim it’s okay… > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Ogre_ > **We just can’t have theocracies.** When they start putting _us_ in a theocracy, I’ll agree with you. But I see a bunch of people on the other side of the world in theocracies, and as long as they arn’t sending their armys my way I don’t think that is any of our business. Do you have any idea what an ass you sound like when you imply that the United States has the moral authority to decide the system of government for the whole damn world? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Ogre_ > **Make no mistake, their aims are imperialistic.** Truer words were never spoken. Oh wait, you wern’t talking about the United States, were you? Anyway, I knew this was coming. When George W Bush implies he’s going to take down a country, he’s not going to rest until he has taken over that country. He’s never lied about his intentions. When he starts talking about “regime change”, that is a sure sign that he is not interested in diplomacy, he is interested in overthrowing another country’s government with military force. We saw it in Iraq, we’ll see it again. George W Bush has some sort of Messiah complex, and I am 100% sure that he thinks that he really can “rid the world of evil” by just taking over whatever countries catch his eye. And evil, apparently, means “Islam” This’ll make three wars against three Muslim countries in three years of presidentcy. Doesn’t that concern people? It makes me sick to know that I am in the country that is doing wrong. We are doing the equivelent of invadeing Poland. It is disgusting. I weep for my nation. I weep that this may be the end of the United States as an experiement in freedom. Don’t ever think your country is immune to evil. There is nothing keeping us sane. There is no magical force that will keep our nation within the bounds of moral good. ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/112 "2003-05-27T06:00:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\*We are doing the equivelent of invadeing Poland. \*\* Fuck you. I’d laugh about your Godwinizing this thread if it weren’t so damn offensive. You may be opposed to the US overthrowing governments (2, incidentally, one of which bore direct moral responsibility for an attack on us), but if you think this is the equivalent of running about all over the world invading countries and imposing genocidal fascism, then the phrase “moral cretin” must have been invented specifically for you. Oh, and I was opposed to the war on Iraq (probably for different reasons from you though), so no lectures please. I bet you are one of those people who whined about everybody questioning your patriotism just because you criticized the war. Maybe you should rethink why they’re questioning your patriotism. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/113 "2003-05-27T06:01:08Z")
**even sven** thinks I sound like an ass. I can live with it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/114 "2003-05-27T06:07:29Z")
**Ogre:** _It has more to do with dealing with several of the worst offenders as far as support of international terrorism goes. […] It also has to do with the fact that, yes, these are the easier targets. Hopefully, we can get a lot of diplomatic “bang for the buck” out of them without having to take the much more difficult political, diplomatic, and economic step of threatening Saudi Arabia or or others._ Again, this doesn’t sound as though it has any solid foundation. “Hopefully”? Sorry, if we’re going to justify the extreme step of invading another nation we need more than mere hope. We need concrete, plausible reasons for believing that a) invasion and conquest will succeed in establishing a pro-Western government; b) the pro-Western government will succeed in establishing democracy, secularism, and prosperity; and c) the net effect will be to defuse more support for terrorism than resentment of our aggression will ignite. Those all sound like extremely optimistic assumptions to me, and I simply cannot take them as justification for launching an unprovoked attack on another country. Even if every one of them was cast-iron guaranteed to happen, it would still not be trivial to decide whether international law really justifies invading another state “for its own good”. Given how nebulous and speculative they are, it is absolute madness, IMHO, to launch more invasions on the basis of those “hopes”. Whew. Well, this has been fun, and don’t think I’m ignoring you if I can’t come back to this thread; going out of town. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/115 "2003-05-27T06:10:54Z")
Errh, hem… Deutschland, Deutschland Uber Alles, Uber alles… Quit yer yipping and wait for the final victory over all of our enemies… Err, hem; yes I weep for the future. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/116 "2003-05-27T06:13:29Z")
**Fang:** _I bet you are one of those people who whined about everybody questioning your patriotism just because you criticized the war._ What’s wrong with that, by the way? I, for one, thought it was absolutely unconscionable to suggest that someone doesn’t love their country just because they opposed launching an invasion. I didn’t tell pro-war people that they weren’t “real Americans” or “good Americans” for supporting the war, and I think it’s highly offensive that some of them presumed to apply that accusation to me. You better believe I “whined” about that loud and clear, and have every intention of doing so again if such disgusting behavior recurs. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/117 "2003-05-27T06:15:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > \*\* If we eventually democratize and secularize the governments of the Islamic world, it’ll be worth it. There’s no reason to think that we’re fighting Islam itself. We just can’t have theocracies. \*\* They can have the self-determination of democracy as long as they don’t choose what we don’t want them to have? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/118 "2003-05-27T06:18:08Z")
It’s funny- In _Bush at War_, Bush et al. state more or less outright that they have a list of countries that they’re going to invade one by one, with Afghanistan and Iraq at the top of the list. (The book was written between those two wars, BTW.) As of last month, when the press was openly speculating about whether Iran or Syria was next on the list, we were treated to the spectacle of Rumsfeld snarling that he didn’t know where people were getting this idiotic idea that the White House has a list of countries to invade. And now, we have people saying that _of course_ Bush has a list, and it’s a good thing, too, and anyone with half a brain knew it all along. What horrible form will the Smog Monster take next? ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/119 "2003-05-27T06:20:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > \*\ ***Fang:** _I bet you are one of those people who whined about everybody questioning your patriotism just because you criticized the war._ > > What’s wrong with that, by the way? I, for one, thought it was absolutely unconscionable to suggest that someone doesn’t love their country just because they opposed launching an invasion. I didn’t tell pro-war people that they weren’t “real Americans” or “good Americans” for supporting the war, and I think it’s highly offensive that some of them presumed to apply that accusation to me. You better believe I “whined” about that loud and clear, and have every intention of doing so again if such disgusting behavior recurs. \*\* **Kimstu** , I didn’t mean to say that it was OK to impugn somebody’s patriotism over criticism of the war; hell, somebody could have even been against the war in Afghanistan and still been patriotic, though it would have been substantially more difficult. I only meant that some people (specifically **even sven** ) have lost the right to use that as a knee-jerk defense against people questioning their patriotism, specifically when they compare the US to the Third Reich. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655/120 "2003-05-27T06:21:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > \*\* (2, incidentally, one of which bore direct moral responsibility for an attack on us), but if you think this is the equivalent of running about all over . \*\* By supporting al queda? Well, the evidence of that is still too sensitive to show the public. (which means it doesn’t exist). Or the responsibility of not destroying the WOMD? The weapons we cannot seem to find? The evidence for which is suspect? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iran-no-no-hell-no/177655.md?page=7)