# War with Iraq - a "just" war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278 "2003-03-18T15:15:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/21 "2003-03-18T20:25:50Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ThoughtPolice:_ > > What are you Bush-haters going to say when we find out they DO have WOMD? I know: Blame it on Bush!!! I for one [will not be surprised at all](http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020927-500715.htm) if they find that upon which Bush is gambling his political livelihood. You know what I think I’ll be inclined to say at first? “Give this administration an enema and you could fit it into a shoebox.” He’d better find Saddam’s wanker plugging the anthrax vat for me to believe him now. ---
**Author:** ![ThoughtPolice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@ThoughtPolice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThoughtPolice)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/22 "2003-03-18T20:26:48Z")
The UN must not know about the WOMD. If they do, they are not doing what they promised to do in Res 1441. BTW, Chirac said today that if Iraq “did” use WOMD, France would help us in the war. What a hypocrite. Saddam used chemicals on his own people 15 years ago. Why would he not use WOMD on the US? Think, people! Some of you need to move to Iraq. You seem to have more faith in Saddam’s regime than you do in our Govt. Well, no use debating anymore. I repect your opinions. I just don’t agree with all of you. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/23 "2003-03-18T20:30:29Z")
He didn’t use chemical weapons in 1991, ThoughtPolice, with his armies being steamrollered like circus midgets. ---
**Author:** ![pokua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/df788c/32.png) [@pokua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pokua)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/24 "2003-03-18T20:58:19Z")
Screw the french people. We bail 'em out of wars and do they help us? Oh, hell no. This war is just. Saddam was supposed to have gotten rid of his weapons in 1991. But he didn’t. We don’t need to do anymore inspections or such. We’ve been doing that for that past decade. I think it’s time for war, and yes I believe it will be a just war. We are saving ourselves from danger and other people. We’re starting this war to stop from something by far more terrible. We are doing the world justice whether they will help us or whether some cowardly countries will not until it’s them being harmed or threatened. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/25 "2003-03-18T21:11:33Z")
“Circus midgets.” Heh. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > **This may come as a shock to you, but the Govt isn’t going to share certain information with you.** This may come as a shock to _you_, but last time I checked, we live in a democracy, which means the leaders are responsible to _us the people_, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/26 "2003-03-18T21:12:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > \*\*The UN must not know about the WOMD. If they do, they are not doing what they promised to do in Res 1441. > \*\* From UN SC res 1441 > [@](#): > > \*\* > 4. > Decides > that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted > by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, > and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a > further material breach of Iraq’s obligations and will be reported to the Council for > assessment in accordance with paragraphs 11 and 12 below; > 11. > Directs > the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director-General > of the IAEA to report immediately to the Council any interference by Iraq with > inspection activities, as well as any failure by Iraq to comply with its disarmament > obligations, including its obligations regarding inspections under this resolution; > 12. > Decides > to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance > with paragraphs 4 or 11 above, in order to consider the situation and the need for > full compliance with all of the relevant Council resolutions in order to secure > international peace and security; > 13. > Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that > it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its > obligations; > 14. > Decides > to remain seized of the matter.\*\* As far as i can tell all the UNSC “promised to do” is “to remain seized of the matter.” What are you talking about? Can you qoute/ cite the promise that you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/27 "2003-03-18T21:17:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > **Steven, > This may come as a shock to you, but the Govt isn’t going to share certain information with you. Sorry.** Then democracy is a sham and the US is a dictatorship just like Iraq. The keystone of democracy is an informed and empowered populace. I won’t take it lying down, even if you believe I should. It saddens me to know that you feel so disenfranchised that you are not demanding this information for yourself. These people derive their power from YOU. Government by consent. I don’t sign things that I haven’t read, I don’t approve of wars when I haven’t seen evidence of a threat. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/28 "2003-03-18T21:32:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pokua \* > \*\* > We are saving ourselves from danger and other people. > \*\* What danger are we saving ourselves from specifically? And What other people are we saving ourselves from specifically? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pokua \* > \*\* > We’re starting this war to stop from something by far more terrible. > \*\* What “by far more terrible” thing are we starting this war to stop from? And, How can you tell that this is the case? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/29 "2003-03-19T03:43:45Z")
Here’s a hypothetical question: Let’s say that Hitler had never attacked other countries, but instead just stayed home and set up ovens to slaughter 10 million Jewish people. Would a war to stop that be ‘just’? By what morality would you accept the notion that if a thug manages to kill enough people to take over a country by force, that suddenly he is ‘sovereign’, and we must all stand by and watch while he slaughters millions and plunders the wealth of a subjugated people? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/30 "2003-03-19T04:09:05Z")
Mugabe Kim Il Jung Where are the “just” wars to stop these animals? It’s all bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![ChaosGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@ChaosGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChaosGod)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/31 "2003-03-19T04:32:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*Here’s a hypothetical question: > > Let’s say that Hitler had never attacked other countries, but instead just stayed home and set up ovens to slaughter 10 million Jewish people. > > Would a war to stop that be ‘just’? > \*\* err… no,… obviously. Mmm, those thousands of nuclear tipped intercontinetal missiles the U.S has, are obviously there for the tourists. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/32 "2003-03-19T05:09:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*By what morality would you accept the notion that if a thug manages to kill enough people to take over a country by force, that suddenly he is ‘sovereign’, and we must all stand by and watch while he slaughters millions and plunders the wealth of a subjugated people? \*\* Ummm… This is how almost all the world leaders came into power. The numbers slaughtered and amount of wealth plundered vary, but for thousands of years, including the modern era(albeit to a lesser degree in many cases), this is exactly how “sovereign” powers got into power. Now if you want to make “peaceful rise to power” some sort of pre-requisite for recognizing a government then we better cut ties with pretty much the entire planet. Oddly enough, your description could well be how history describes what the US is planning right now. Mr Bush as the “thug” and the force being the US military. Killing enough Iraqis to claim sovereign rights, which will then be handed over to someone else as long as they promise to play nice with the US in the future. If you don’t believe there will be slaughter and wealth plundered then I’m not sure we live in the same reality. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/33 "2003-03-19T05:31:02Z")
—Has Iraq threatened anyone or made any aggresive moves since the Gulf war?— Well, the no-fly zones he agreed to in the treaty haven’t exactly been peaceful. They’d be pretty agressive. —Let’s say that Hitler had never attacked other countries, but instead just stayed home and set up ovens to slaughter 10 million Jewish people.— Ok, let’s say that: and then let’s ask: what would have happened back in the day? Almost certianly: the Greatest Generation would have whistled Dixie. They certianly didn’t roll into action when the Armenians were being slaughtered. Rwanda didn’t see any troops coming its way. Nobody attacked Stalin or Mao in the name of humanity. Cambodia had a pretty unfettered road to Onion jokes about their economy being based on the use of human skulls as currency. I seem to remember some people called “the Kurds” who didn’t see hide nor hair of a war to help them. I agree that if there WERE such wars, they would have been just. But what happened in WWII wasn’t such a war. Saving the Jews was, at best, a last-minute benefit (and at worst, FDR and his planners deliberately avoided taking rather minor actions that could have saved countless Jewish lives: even just one extra bombing mission to disrupt the train lines to the camps could have saved thousands). Indeed, I support this war because freeing Iraqis will definately be AN outcome: something I’ve wanted for a long time (on a long list of countries that need definitive ultimatums). I think anti-war people are foolish for not seeing that as being a greater good. If you really want a good example, I’d suggest Kosovo: though even that was ultimately premised just as much on the “warring, splintering nations could destablize the entire region” as the slaughter of the Muslims, it was at least recognized as a war based on a newfound feeling that genocidal dictators and their actions are everyone’s business. ---
**Author:** ![Fugazi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f08c70/32.png) [@Fugazi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fugazi)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/34 "2003-03-19T07:10:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reeder \* > \*\*Mugabe > Kim Il Jung > > Where are the “just” wars to stop these animals? > > It’s all bullshit. \*\* Could you further explain this arguement to me, I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that because N Korea is a brutal dictatorship, we should leave Iraq alone? Are you saying, if we attack Iraq, we need to attack every brutal dictatorship in the world at the same time? Are you saying every dictatorship should be attacked regardless of the cost in human lives? ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/35 "2003-03-19T11:21:44Z")
You picked an appropriate username, **ThoughtPolice**. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > The UN must not know about the WOMD. If they do, they are not doing what they promised to do in Res 1441. BTW, Chirac said today that if Iraq “did” use WOMD, France would help us in the war. What a hypocrite. Why is this hypocrisy? The world does not see Iraq as the dire threat you and the Bush administration try to portray, but France and just about every other nation on Earth would join ranks with the US immediately if Iraq made use of WMD against the US. This is not hypocrisy. > [@](#): > > Saddam used chemicals on his own people 15 years ago. Why would he not use WOMD on the US? Think, people! What a simplistic approach to the problem. First, there is no _direct_ evidence that Iraq possesses WMD. Second, Iraq does not possess the means to deliver WMD to the American people. Third, Iraq had ample opportunity in 1991 to use WMD against allied troops AND against Israel, but it didn’t. Why? Think! > [@](#): > > Some of you need to move to Iraq. You seem to have more faith in Saddam’s regime than you do in our Govt. If we examine their output objectively, both Iraq and the US have dishonest governments, although to be sure Iraq’s is **rather** worse than the US’s. There is nothing wrong with pointing such things out. > [@](#): > > Well, no use debating anymore. I repect your opinions. I just don’t agree with all of you. You haven’t done very much debating, and what little you did was harmed by the two sentences quoted above. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/36 "2003-03-19T12:41:29Z")
Its a situation where irony lies thick upon the ground. In the name of spreading democracy, we want war. France, a democracy whose people _oppose_ war, is reviled by us for doing _precisely_ what her people will. Does Saddam have WMD? I suspect he does. But I don’t _know_ that he does. Will we find them? No doubt. We will find them even if they aren’t there, because there is no chance _whatsoever_ that we will say “ooopsy!” in front of the entire world. Everybody knows this. Everybody has seen us offer utter bullshit as incontrovertible proof. So nobody, but nobody, is going to believe us. Even if we’re telling the truth. Soon, Al Jazzera will be streaming videos of dead Iraqi women and children to every Muslim TV set in the world. Of course we will try not to, I’ve no doubt that our soldiers are professional and humane. But it is impossible - _impossible_- to conduct a war without civilian casualties. We are conducting a world wide recruiting program for Osama and his ilk. And, of course, when the terrorist attacks start, some of us here will point and say “See! Told you so! Told you Saddam and Osama were best buddies!” Thats like sneaking up behind a bull, kicking him in the balls, and when he turns on you, screaming “See! Told you he was dangerous”. Condition is orange. We will not see green in our lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/37 "2003-03-19T14:08:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Its a situation where irony lies thick upon the ground. > > In the name of spreading democracy, we want war. France, a democracy whose people _oppose_ war, is reviled by us for doing _precisely_ what her people will. > > Does Saddam have WMD? I suspect he does. But I don’t _know_ that he does. Will we find them? No doubt. We will find them even if they aren’t there, because there is no chance _whatsoever_ that we will say “ooopsy!” in front of the entire world. Everybody knows this. Everybody has seen us offer utter bullshit as incontrovertible proof. So nobody, but nobody, is going to believe us. Even if we’re telling the truth. > > Soon, Al Jazzera will be streaming videos of dead Iraqi women and children to every Muslim TV set in the world. Of course we will try not to, I’ve no doubt that our soldiers are professional and humane. But it is impossible - _impossible_- to conduct a war without civilian casualties. We are conducting a world wide recruiting program for Osama and his ilk. > > And, of course, when the terrorist attacks start, some of us here will point and say “See! Told you so! Told you Saddam and Osama were best buddies!” Thats like sneaking up behind a bull, kicking him in the balls, and when he turns on you, screaming “See! Told you he was dangerous”. > > Condition is orange. We will not see green in our lifetime. \*\* greetings from Australia, news downunder tonite tells us that Malaysia has just told us we are committing a very dangerous error in supporting the US, future implications for us dont look too good. will you help if we are invaded? sorry, we are not so sure, it doesnt seem all that clear just when the US 'helps ’ those in need, like, theres not much here to give you, to help sustain your hi energy needs. plz forgive my doutb, ( no offense intended ) but tell me, where where the guardians of the ppl when Tibet was overrun, its ppl slaughtered, land pillaged.? it just doesnt seem consistant. please clarify for me, i desperately want to understand. Zan ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/38 "2003-03-19T14:18:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \* > \*\* > Well, no use debating anymore. > \*\* After just **6** posts to the thread you started? Why’d you post to **GreatDebates** if all you were interestde in was tiny/ meager debates? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/39 "2003-03-19T14:21:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\* > Condition is orange. We will not see green in our lifetime. > \*\* It’s so very sad that I think you are correct about this. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/40 "2003-03-19T14:23:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*By what morality would you accept the notion that if a thug manages to kill enough people to take over a country by force, that suddenly he is ‘sovereign’, and we must all stand by and watch while he slaughters millions and plunders the wealth of a subjugated people? \*\* This would describe the early United States of America, though in that case it was a team of thugs, not just one thug. Funny how things work. Saddam Hussein is certainly a nasty dictator. However, in the next few weeks I suspect the government of the United States will kill a great many more Iraqi citizens than the government of Iraq would in a bad year. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278.md?page=3)