# War with Iraq - a "just" war?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [March 18, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278 "2003-03-18T15:15:35Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 16\
**Page:** 3

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ThoughtPolice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@ThoughtPolice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThoughtPolice)\
**Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/41 "2003-03-19T16:06:06Z")

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SimonX,  
What left is there to debate? You Bush-haters are not going to give him credit, even when Iraq is liberated from Saddam.

Our intelligence has told us that al-Queda has been training in Iraq. Saddam has WOMD (I believe you know this). He said he did not have those rockets he is now destroying. He has a drone that violates 1441. He continually violates the no-fly zone. Some of Iraq’s high-ranking defectors have told us he has chemicals. What more do you want? He is in material breech of 1441. Diplomacy hasn’t worked in 12 years. Blix said Saddam would not use chemicals on us (wait! I thought he didn’t have any to use!).

He will obtain the means to deliver WOMD if we do not stop him now. He is a lied and lied and lied. How can you trust him?

What is your real beef with liberating Iraq? I don’t understand.

The debate is really over because we ARE GOING IN and we will remove Saddam’s regime. You don’t have to like it, but it will happen. Why debate it any longer?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\
**Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/42 "2003-03-19T16:40:19Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> SimonX,  
> What left is there to debate?  
> \*\*

I thought we were discussing the relative just-ness of the war in this thread.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> Our intelligence has told us that al-Queda has been training in Iraq.  
> \*\*

Cite with relevance please.  
AQ was training in the US of A too.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> He will obtain the means to deliver WOMD if we do not stop him now. He is a lied and lied and lied. How can you trust him?  
> \*\*

Who wants to trust him? We can’t invade a country because we don’t trust the leader of that country.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> What is your real beef with liberating Iraq? I don’t understand.  
> \*\*

I’m all for liberating the people of Iraq. I’m just unconvinced of the necessity of doing it this way, right now.  
I’m also unconvinced about Iraq representing an immanent threat to the US.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> The debate is really over because we ARE GOING IN and we will remove Saddam’s regime. You don’t have to like it, but it will happen. Why debate it any longer?  
> \*\*

Just because it is going to happen doesn’t negate the relative just-ness of an action.  
ps  
Why do you feel the need to determine who I like and dislike?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\
**Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/43 "2003-03-19T16:47:14Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> SimonX,  
> What left is there to debate?  
> \*\*

I thought we were discussing the relative just-ness of the war in this thread.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> Our intelligence has told us that al-Queda has been training in Iraq.  
> \*\*

Cite with relevance please.  
AQ was training in the US of A too.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> He will obtain the means to deliver WOMD if we do not stop him now. He is a lied and lied and lied. How can you trust him?  
> \*\*

Who wants to trust him? We can’t invade a country because we don’t trust the leader of that country.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> What is your real beef with liberating Iraq? I don’t understand.  
> \*\*

I’m all for liberating the people of Iraq. I’m just unconvinced of the necessity of doing it this way, right now.  
I’m also unconvinced about Iraq representing an immanent threat to the US.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> The debate is really over because we ARE GOING IN and we will remove Saddam’s regime. You don’t have to like it, but it will happen. Why debate it any longer?  
> \*\*

Just because it is going to happen doesn’t negate the relative just-ness of an action.  
ps  
Why do you feel the need to determine who I like and dislike?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\
**Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/44 "2003-03-19T16:47:38Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> SimonX,  
> What left is there to debate?  
> \*\*

I thought we were discussing the relative just-ness of the war in this thread.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> Our intelligence has told us that al-Queda has been training in Iraq.  
> \*\*

Cite with relevance please.  
AQ was training in the US of A too.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> He will obtain the means to deliver WOMD if we do not stop him now. He is a lied and lied and lied. How can you trust him?  
> \*\*

Who wants to trust him? We can’t invade a country because we don’t trust the leader of that country.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> What is your real beef with liberating Iraq? I don’t understand.  
> \*\*

I’m all for liberating the people of Iraq. I’m just unconvinced of the necessity of doing it this way, right now.  
I’m also unconvinced about Iraq representing an immanent threat to the US.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> The debate is really over because we ARE GOING IN and we will remove Saddam’s regime. You don’t have to like it, but it will happen. Why debate it any longer?  
> \*\*

Just because it is going to happen doesn’t negate the relative just-ness of an action.  
ps  
Why do you feel the need to determine whom I like and dislike?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\
**Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/45 "2003-03-19T16:53:14Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> SimonX,  
> What left is there to debate?  
> \*\*

I thought we were discussing the relative just-ness of the war in this thread.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> Our intelligence has told us that al-Queda has been training in Iraq.  
> \*\*

Cite with relevance please.  
AQ was training in the US of A too.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> He will obtain the means to deliver WOMD if we do not stop him now. He is a lied and lied and lied. How can you trust him?  
> \*\*

Who wants to trust him? We can’t invade a country because we don’t trust the leader of that country.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> What is your real beef with liberating Iraq? I don’t understand.  
> \*\*

I’m all for liberating the people of Iraq. I’m just unconvinced of the necessity of doing it this way, right now.  
I’m also unconvinced about Iraq representing an immanent threat to the US.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ThoughtPolice \*  
> \*\*  
> The debate is really over because we ARE GOING IN and we will remove Saddam’s regime. You don’t have to like it, but it will happen. Why debate it any longer?  
> \*\*

Just because it is going to happen doesn’t negate the relative just-ness of an action.  
ps  
Why do you feel the need to determine whom I like and dislike?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\
**Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/46 "2003-03-19T17:01:09Z")

</div>

oops. mods if you would please, remove the duplicates thanX.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Profane\_Creation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/839c29/32.png) [@Profane\_Creation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profane_Creation)\
**Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/47 "2003-03-19T19:43:47Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Reeder \*  
> \*\*Mugabe  
> Kim Il Jung
> 
> Where are the “just” wars to stop these animals?
> 
> It’s all bullshit. \*\*

Would our invasion of all 3 nations at once make you feel better about it? We are doing what we can, as we can. We’ll deal with them soon enough.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ThoughtPolice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@ThoughtPolice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThoughtPolice)\
**Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/48 "2003-03-20T19:56:22Z")

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So Saddam was in gross violation of Res. 1441. He fired rockets that he said he didn’t have that violated 1441. Whether France, Germany, Russia or China gives us their blessing is immaterial.

This is a just war.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\
**Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/49 "2003-03-20T20:31:31Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> _ **ThoughtPolice** wrote:_  
> So Saddam was in gross violation of Res. 1441. He fired rockets that he said he didn’t have that violated 1441.

What are you talking about?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ThoughtPolice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@ThoughtPolice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThoughtPolice)\
**Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/50 "2003-03-20T21:01:43Z")

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AZCowboy,  
Do you watch the news? Do you understand Res.1441? Do you realize that a Scud owned/used by Iraq is a gross breech of Res.1441? Do you realize that Saddam has been lying to the world?

If Russia, China, France, and Germany don’t have the balls to enforce Res.1441, we’ll have to do it, along with the support of 40 other nations.

Turn on the news. You might learn something.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\
**Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/51 "2003-03-20T21:24:21Z")

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Oh.

And let me guess. You also believe that the Patriot missile systems used in GW1 were 100% effective, because you heard it on the news during war coverage, eh?

Yep, I might learn something.

Until it is a confirmed scud, it is simply a news report during the chaos of war.

Nonetheless, I sure hope you’re right, that we find clear and compelling evidence of WoMD violations. Otherwise …

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\
**Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/52 "2003-03-20T21:24:44Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by SimonX \*  
> \*\*  
> I don’t know anyone who thinks that Iraq doesn’t have WMD. Everyone pretty much is sure that Iraq does have WMD. \*\*

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Abe \*  
> \*\*  
> First, there is no direct evidence that Iraq possesses WMD. \*\*

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by SimonX \*  
> **Of course, because  
> Ignorance is Strength**

The Left seems to be pretty strong by that standard, wouldn’t you agree?

Regards,  
Shodan

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\
**Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/53 "2003-03-20T22:48:46Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by AZCowboy \*  
> Until it is a confirmed scud, it is simply a news report during the chaos of war.

Israel newspapers report that those were FROGS (shorter-ranged, and allowed), not SCUDs. [Link.](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/275256.html)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\
**Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/54 "2003-03-20T22:52:59Z")

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And who is surprised?

(thanks, **rjung** )

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\
**Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/55 "2003-03-21T00:15:40Z")

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Why, no, **Shodan** , I wouldn’t. But thanks for the drive by snide, anyway.

You see, when I say I know something, I mean I _know_ it. I’m not interested, as Our Leader seems to be, in an arcane view of phenomenology where faith is knowledge (or perhaps GeeDubya is influenced by Gnostic thinkers).

I _know_ the Lake Street Bridge exists. I can take you there, show it to you, you can thump its rusty rivets. It’s there, and I _know_ it.

The Bushistas, on the other hand, simply stamp thier collective foot and insist they know that Saddam has WMD’s. They can’t tell you where. They can’t tell you why they know. But they do. But as our philosopher in residence, Donald Rumsfeld, remarked, “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” Well, perhaps not. But neither is evidence of any kind whatsoever.

I trust this will not trouble you, those blessed with the faith that surpasseth all understanding. Or argument, for that matter.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ThoughtPolice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@ThoughtPolice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThoughtPolice)\
**Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/war-with-iraq-a-just-war/162278/56 "2003-03-21T01:30:29Z")

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When the smoke has cleared, you will find that they fired at least one Scud. What will be your excuse then?

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