# Ward Churchill has been fired. Is this important? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 29, 2007, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002 "2007-05-29T23:39:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/1 "2007-05-29T23:39:02Z")
Colorado is all atwitter tonight – Hank Brown, former U.S. senator, former president of the University of Northern Colorado (my alma mater) and now president of the University of Colorado, has brushed aside a recommendation from an investigative committee at the university and fired Prof. Ward Churchill. The committee recommended that Churchill be demoted and suspended without pay for a year. Here’s a background [article](http://www.denverpost.com/ci_3982474) from last fall. A lot of pseudo-First Amendment advocates are screaming bloody murder, claiming that Churchill’s firing, which Brown and CU claim is for plagarism and fabrication of materials for his doctoral disertation, is really for his stupid comments in which he insulted the victims of the World Trade Center attacks. My take: If you’ve fabricated your PhD disertation, don’t go calling attention to yourself with noxious effluviating. As a graduate student, liberal, and sympathizer of American Indians, I find Churchill a disgusting gasbag. But seriously, is this guy really on anybody’s radar outside of Colorado? Has he been treated fairly or railroaded? ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_Bowe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@Doug\_Bowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_Bowe)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/2 "2007-05-29T23:58:04Z")
NPR is covering this story. Remember the Dean of Admissions at MIT being fired for misrepresenting her resemue…28 years ago? If the story is true then this professor fabricated and plagiarized. I assume the University has proof. That is cause for dismissal. Is he being railroaded? That’s what his attorney must prove. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/3 "2007-05-30T00:00:34Z")
Screw Churchill. The university wouldn’t have the balls to fire him if they didn’t have solid evidence of plagiarism. He’s a non-entity and needs to slink back to his obscurity while we deal with more important affairs, like when is Joe Torre gonna get fired? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/4 "2007-05-30T00:03:37Z")
If it is true that he plagarized and fabricated materials for his dissertation, then I guess it doesn’t matter if the “real” reason he was fired was for his 9/11 comments. He gave them a perfectly legitimate reason for them to fire him, so the world will never know for sure. Any academic who is found to have committed fraud in their writings should immediately be dismissed. I can’t imagine in a million years why an institution would do otherwise. It would reflect very, very badly on them, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/5 "2007-05-30T00:32:03Z")
[QUOTE=Sunrazor] My take: If you’ve fabricated your PhD disertation, don’t go calling attention to yourself with noxious effluviating. As a graduate student, liberal, and sympathizer of American Indians, I find Churchill a disgusting gasbag. [/QUOTE] Churchill [doesn’t have a doctorate](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1345497/posts) except for an honorary PhD issued by Alfred University. He is noted for multiple incidences of alleged plagerism, misrepresenting both his military service and his ethnic background, and generally being a hyperbolic hosebag. Many of these claims aren’t suspiciously recent but actually extend back a couple of decades; the university doubtless kept him on because he was the self-described leading scholor on American Indian studies. I’d have at least some amount of sympathy for Churchill if his work and statements, however unpopular they may be, had even a vague semblence of intellectual value or integrity but in fact he’s the academic equivilent of a radio shock jock. Be gone with him so we can go back to detailing Linsday Lohan’s spiraling descent into drug-induced psychosis, which is as equally relevent to world affairs as whatever nonsense is issuing from Churchill’s pen. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/6 "2007-05-30T01:06:31Z")
Is that the dude who makes the comic strip? ---
**Author:** ![Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Key_Lime_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/7 "2007-05-30T01:16:00Z")
I think the larger importance is that other universities are instituting ‘post-tenure review’ in order to avoid the same PR problem that CU has had with Churchill. Tenure as we know it is soon to be a thing of the past. Whether that’s bad or good is a debate we’ve had before I think. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/8 "2007-05-30T02:16:29Z")
Honestly, I have mixed feelings about Churchill. I’m a hard-liner about plagiarism, but the whole 9/11 thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth (I think people have the right to say stupid things about 9/11). I also think it’s a little nervy of Brown to go against the faculty committee’s recommendation - but that is showing my own biases because I would probably not feel as strongly about that if Brown were an academic himself. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/9 "2007-05-30T02:49:22Z")
[QUOTE=delphica] Honestly, I have mixed feelings about Churchill. I’m a hard-liner about plagiarism, but the whole 9/11 thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth (I think people have the right to say stupid things about 9/11). I also think it’s a little nervy of Brown to go against the faculty committee’s recommendation - but that is showing my own biases because I would probably not feel as strongly about that if Brown were an academic himself. [/QUOTE] Yep, Brown is still getting mixed reviews for his performance at UNC, although to be fair I think he’s sometimes unfairly blamed for things Kay Norton has done since he left. He’s part of the “anti-academic” movement Colorado’s government began under Gov. Bill Owens; post-secondary education still finds itself on the short end of the funding stick, but that’s another subject altogether. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/10 "2007-05-30T04:24:04Z")
[QUOTE=Key Lime Guy] I think the larger importance is that other universities are instituting ‘post-tenure review’ in order to avoid the same PR problem that CU has had with Churchill. Tenure as we know it is soon to be a thing of the past. . [/QUOTE] The thing is, though, that this particular issue need have no effect either way on issues of tenure. Most tenure agreements allow for firing the professor if he or she is found to have committed crimes related to the job, gross professional misconduct, or severe breaches of academic ethics. Now, the frequency with which such conditions are enforced is another matter, but firing a plagiarist does not require any alteration to the system. From U. Colorado’s own [website](https://www.cu.edu/faculty/fac_handbook/05/Five-II.html): > [@](#): > > **A. Dismissal for Cause, and Termination** > > The Laws of the Regents establish a provision for the dismissal of faculty members on the grounds of demonstrable profession incompetence, neglect of duty, insubordination, conviction of a felony, or any offence involving moral turpitude upon a plea or a verdict of guilty or following a plea of nolo contendere, or sexual harrassment, or other conduct which falls below minimum standards of profession integrety. The Laws of the Regents include provisions for notification to the faculty member and referral to the Committee on Privilege and Tenure. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/11 "2007-05-30T06:36:28Z")
In many ways, this is a great example of how academic freedom works. The ability to freely express ideas is one that I, like many academics, love about the professorate. But only the most naive think that there’s no risk. Productive and brilliant scholars will be able to speak provocatively on a topic, but if you’re unproductive, in a field that garners little respect, and your work is of questionable quality… I wouldn’t expect a lot of support. And it goes without saying that you’d better have your professional house in order if you’re attracting this kind of attention. Without a doubt, his 9/11 comments attracted scrutiny, but being called a plagiarist by your peers is about the worst thing that can happen to you professionally. My institution revokes degrees if it’s shown that any part of a thesis is not original (and not cited). If he keeps his degree I’ll say he got off easy. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/12 "2007-05-30T13:50:58Z")
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow] My institution revokes degrees if it’s shown that any part of a thesis is not original (and not cited). If he keeps his degree I’ll say he got off easy. [/QUOTE] I don’t know how much of the plagarized/fabricated work was actually for his master’s degree (I stand corrected on my earlier assertion that he’d done a doctoral disertation) and how much was other writing after he’d earned the master’s. My understanding is that his post-graduate writings (one assumes for peer-reviewed journals) were where most of the fabrication was. A lot of people outside fo academia don’t understand how important it is for working faculty to adhere to the strictest standards of research and citation when writing for journals, publishing books, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Key_Lime_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/13 "2007-05-30T14:11:55Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] The thing is, though, that this particular issue need have no effect either way on issues of tenure. Most tenure agreements allow for firing the professor if he or she is found to have committed crimes related to the job, gross professional misconduct, or severe breaches of academic ethics. Now, the frequency with which such conditions are enforced is another matter, but firing a plagiarist does not require any alteration to the system. [/QUOTE] I’m sure you’re right, but nonetheless tenure is being eroded. I guess it’s a perception vs. reality thing. Plus, trustees/regents (who seem to be exercising the pressure on this issue) are normally political appointees who may not have much/any experience in academia. These people are positively mortified of people like Churchill. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/14 "2007-05-30T14:22:26Z")
[QUOTE=Key Lime Guy] I’m sure you’re right, but nonetheless tenure is being eroded. I guess it’s a perception vs. reality thing. Plus, trustees/regents (who seem to be exercising the pressure on this issue) are normally political appointees who may not have much/any experience in academia. These people are positively mortified of people like Churchill. [/QUOTE] Anyone with half a brain should be mortified of him. He is an embarassment. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/15 "2007-05-30T14:25:13Z")
[QUOTE=NurseCarmen] Is that the dude who makes the comic strip? [/QUOTE] > **[Ted Rall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Rall)** > > Frederick Theodore Rall III (born August 26, 1963) is an American columnist, syndicated editorial cartoonist, and author. His political cartoons often appear in a multi-panel comic-strip format and frequently blend comic-strip and editorial-cartoon conventions. At their peak, Rall's cartoons appeared in approximately 100 newspapers around the United States. He was president of the Association of American Editorial Cartoonists from 2008 to 2009. Rall draws three editorial cartoons a week for syndi... ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/16 "2007-05-30T14:32:58Z")
Oops I was going to edit because I didn’t like my driveby post. I swear it was less than five minutes. Here it is. [QUOTE=Key Lime Guy] I’m sure you’re right, but nonetheless tenure is being eroded. I guess it’s a perception vs. reality thing. Plus, trustees/regents (who seem to be exercising the pressure on this issue) are normally political appointees who may not have much/any experience in academia. These people are positively mortified of people like Churchill. [/QUOTE] Anyone with half a brain should be mortified of him. He is an embarassment. To clarify here are some of the things in his wiki article. I have read the same things elsewhere but wiki has them condensed nicely. > [@](#): > > In 1966, Churchill was drafted into the United States Army. On his 1980 resume, Churchill said he served as a public-information specialist who “wrote and edited the battalion newsletter and wrote news releases.”[11] In a 1987 article on Churchill, the Denver Post printed Churchill’s claims that he went to paratrooper school, then volunteered for Vietnam and served a 10-month tour as “a LURP” [sic], one of a six-man team sent out on Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol to track down North Vietnamese.[12]. The Denver Post reports that Churchill’s military records show that Churchill was trained as a projectionist and light truck driver, and give no indication that he went to paratrooper school or trained for LRRP.[13] > > Churchill told the Denver Post that he had worked with the Students for a Democratic Society and Weather Underground in the late 1960’s. According to the Denver Post article, Churchill said that he had been politically radicalized as a result of his experiences in Vietnam, Churchill claimed that he taught members of the Weather Underground how to make bombs and fire weapons.[14] However, Weather Underground leaders Bernadine Dohrn and Bill Ayers do not recall Churchill ever participating in that movement, nor do FBI files indicate Churchill’s presence on the scene.[15] > [@](#): > > Both of his birth parents are listed as white on the 1930 census, as are all of his other known ancestors on previous censuses and other official documents. [24] > > Churchill claims ancestry of three different tribes, Creek[25][26], Cherokee[27], and Metis[28][29] and states that he is an enrolled[30] member of the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians. The Rocky Mountain News investigated and found “no evidence of a single Indian ancestor” [of Churchill].[31] The Denver Post’s genealogical investigation resulted in the same conclusion. Ernestine Berry, who was on the tribe’s enrollment committee (Keetoowah) and served on the tribal council for four years, told the The Denver Post: “He (Churchill) was trying to get recognized as an Indian. He could not prove he was an Indian (Cherokee) at all.” [32] Moreover, the United Keetoowah Band responded to Churchill’s claim by clarifying that he was not an enrolled member, but an honorary associate member (just as former President Bill Clinton was) for few months in 1994. According to tribal chief George Wickliffe, Churchill’s claims to Keetowah membership “are deemed fraudulent by the United Keetoowah Band,” and that Churchill “could not prove any Cherokee ancestry.” [33] The tribal statement said that Churchill’s membership claim in the Keetowah tribe after receiving an Associate Membership “is akin to receiving an honorary doctorate, and then claiming to have received eight years worth of university education.” [34] That isn’t even touching on the plagerism and fraud allegations. He is a pathological liar and a fraud. This is not about acedemic freedom. It is about maintaining the integrity of the school. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/17 "2007-05-30T14:34:20Z")
There is a lot to be said for dumping the dodo, for that would free up funds to hire someone who would be a better academic. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/18 "2007-05-30T14:37:32Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] There is a lot to be said for dumping the dodo, for that would free up funds to hire someone who would be a better academic. [/QUOTE] Well, Bush will be looking for a new job soon. ---
**Author:** ![Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Key_Lime_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/19 "2007-05-30T14:41:19Z")
[QUOTE=Loach] That isn’t even touching on the plagerism and fraud allegations. He is a pathological liar and a fraud. This is not about acedemic freedom. It is about maintaining the integrity of the school. [/QUOTE] No question: Colorado has cause to fire him. What I’m saying is that _other universities_ are going overboard to protect themselves against a similar case by effectively ending tenure. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002/20 "2007-05-30T22:55:19Z")
I think Hippy Hollow pretty much summed up my feelings on it. Like delphica, I think he has as much right as any other American to say ridiculous, offensive shit about 9/11 if he so chooses. I support the idea that he shouldn’t be fired for that. But to the extent that he seems to have violated a number of tenets of academic integrity, I think he should be unemployed in higher ed. The chickens are coming home to roost, and I hope he won’t embarrass himself by making false claims about his academic freedom being violated, or his being discriminated against, or whatever else. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ward-churchill-has-been-fired-is-this-important/406002.md?page=2)