# Warm, fuzzy ad with lesbian parents... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 20, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warm-fuzzy-ad-with-lesbian-parents/214297 "2003-11-20T13:34:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bouncer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Bouncer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bouncer)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warm-fuzzy-ad-with-lesbian-parents/214297/41 "2003-11-24T04:38:33Z")
So in sum you’re saying divorce is genetic and home life has little to no impact on the development of personality? That begs a couple of questions then. Why was divorce so rare in society until very recently (in terms of the last 400 years or so?) Why is it the majority of people in prison come from broken homes? Things is, that according to more recent reasearch, it’s not divorce per se that is necessarily genetic, but rather, other genetic behaviours (such as tendencies towards gambling, alcoholism or infidelity) which lead to divorce. It is, after all, important to remember that marriage is human created, and not a biological issue. "Dr Lyons believes that environmental factors swamp any genetic influence on marriage because people are generally young when they wed, and their decision rests heavily on the success or failure of their parents’ marriage. But once in a marriage, other factors kick in. He thinks the genetic influence on divorce is related to factors such as drug abuse, depression and alcoholism, which have a genetic component. The team found that twins who were pathological gamblers, for instance, were 2.8 times more likely to get divorced than the norm for the day. Dr Lyons said: “Almost any kind of psychopathology is going to make staying married harder.” " [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1433340.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1433340.stm) Further, an interesting paper compared adoptive children with those raised by their biologic parents, and found : "In biological families, children who experienced their parents’ separation by the age of 12 years exhibited higher rates of behavioral problems and substance use, and lower levels of achievement and social adjustment, compared with children whose parents’ marriages remained intact. Similarly, adopted children who experienced their (adoptive) parents’ divorces exhibited elevated levels of behavioral problems and substance use compared with adoptees whose parents did not separate, but there were no differences on achievement and social competence." > **[Are associations between parental divorce and children's adjustment...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10902695/?dopt=Abstract)** > > The hypothesis that the association between parental divorce and children's adjustment is mediated by genetic factors was examined in the Colorado Adoption Project, a prospective longitudinal study of 398 adoptive and biological families. In... This would indicate that homelife is indeed at least partially responsible for development of the individual, and the adoption based studies also lead to that conclusion. Regards, -Bouncer- ---
**Author:** ![mrsam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5ac83/32.png) [@mrsam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrsam)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warm-fuzzy-ad-with-lesbian-parents/214297/42 "2003-11-24T06:25:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Things is, that according to more recent reasearch, it’s not divorce per se that is necessarily genetic, but rather, other genetic behaviours (such as tendencies towards gambling, alcoholism or infidelity) which lead to divorce. Which is my entire point, which you evidently missed. And this gets even further away from the matter at hand, since it does nothing to demonstrate that two opposite-sex parents are developmentally better than two same-sex parents. Why is stable same-sex parenting any different fron stable opposite-sex parenting? I’ll check out the adopted study and get back to you later. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warm-fuzzy-ad-with-lesbian-parents/214297/43 "2003-11-24T06:32:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dil \* > \*\*Definitely there are exceptions, but generally it is true that your chances of being a well-adjusted person go dramatically up if you have both a mother and a father involved in your upbringing. > > Men without fathers, or lousy fathers, have trouble becoming good fathers and good husbands. Women without fathers, or lousy fathers, often seek love desperately from any man they come across, regardless of how he treats her. Not having a mother is equally damaging to a person’s development. > > Thus, I believe that allowing homosexual couples to raise children is shortchanging the children’s futures. You are giving them less of a chance of success in this world and creating less stability in the families of tomorrow because when these kids grow up they won’t have a good model of a mother-father relationship. > > \*\* Using this same reasoning, single parents are just as bad (if not worse) than gay parents (not only is there no Mommy/Daddy around, there’s no loving committed relationship of any kind as a model). How should we handle single people who want to become parents, or a divorce when there are kids around? ---
**Author:** ![mrsam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5ac83/32.png) [@mrsam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrsam)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warm-fuzzy-ad-with-lesbian-parents/214297/44 "2003-11-26T13:20:21Z")
Actually, **Bouncer** , I’ve found some good studies which solidly refute your claim. > [@](#): > > Dr Lyons said: “Almost any kind of psychopathology is going to make staying married harder.” First off I’d like to say that homosexuality _does not fall into the realm of psychopathology_. Flaks, Ficher, Masterpasqua, Joseph **Lesbians Choosing Motherhood: A Comparative Study of Lesbian and Heterosexual Parents and Their Children.** \* Developmental Psychology. 31(1):105-114, January 1995.\* > [@](#): > > Notwithstanding this study’s specific features, its results are entirely consistent with prior research on planned lesbian-mother families (McCandlish, 1987; Patterson, 1994; Steckel, 1985, 1987). Like earlier research, results of this study are consistent with the conclusion that the children of lesbian and heterosexual parents are remarkably similar, specifically in the areas of intellectual functioning and behavioral adjustment. In each of these areas, no gender differences were found; scores for both boys and girls in the lesbian- and heterosexual-parent groups were extremely similar, and each group compared favorably with the standardization samples for the instruments used. Furthermore, of the 24 comparisons made between the children in the two groups, 17 actually favored the children of lesbian parents, a fact that diminishes the likelihood that differences were not found because of problems associated with small sample size. Rather, given the direction and magnitude of these results, it is more probable that the two groups of children and parents were comparable in the areas assessed. > > Like their children, the two groups of parents evaluated in this study also revealed similarities. In the area of relationship quality, no differences were found between the groups, although the lesbian couples received higher scores in every area of dyadic adjustment. Moreover, both the lesbian and heterosexual couples were comparable in overall dyadic adjustment to the married couples in Spanier’s (1976) normative sample, suggesting satisfactory relationship quality in both groups. > > Only in the domain of parenting skills awareness were differences found between the two groups of couples. Analysis using the Parent Awareness Skills Survey revealed that the lesbian couples were more aware of the skills necessary for effective parenting than were their heterosexual counterparts. Specifically, the lesbian couples proved to be superior in their ability to identify the critical issues in child-care situations and to formulate appropriate solutions to the problems they noticed. With further analysis, however, it was revealed that these differences were related to the parents’ gender rather than to their sexual orientation: Both heterosexual and lesbian mothers demonstrated an awareness of parenting skills that was superior to that of heterosexual fathers. Although this result may suggest that the heterosexual fathers were less capable in their ability to handle child-care problems, it may also represent a gender difference in their likelihood to verbalize their ideas about parenting. The later conclusion is supported by an examination of the actual responses of the participants on the parenting skills measure. The verbatim records of the fathers were substantially shorter than those of the three groups of mothers. Further research is necessary for one to compare the parenting skills of parents on the basis of gender, preferably relying on observational data. > > What are the implications of these results? Healthy developmental outcomes for the children in this and other studies of lesbian families support the view of Patterson (1992) and others that neither father presence nor parental heterosexuality is crucial for healthy child development. Such a conclusion, although uncontroverted in the research literature, remains controversial because it challenges widely accepted psychoanalytic and social learning theories of child development. Because such theories rely on traditional family structures to define the factors that promote children’s development, they are not able to account easily for successful outcomes in nontraditional families, particularly those in which there is no opposite-sex parent in the home. Evidence of the type presented here, which suggests that well-adjusted children of both sexes can be raised in families of varying configurations, will hopefully provide an impetus for a reevaluation of the parental qualities most important for optimal child development. To accommodate the findings of this and other studies of lesbian families, it would appear that theories of child development will have to take into account the preeminence of process variables over structural ones in predicting the most desirable family environment for raising children (Patterson, 1994). > > In addition to the potential scientific contributions of this research, its findings also raise questions about the assumptions of some judges and legislators regarding lesbian-parent families (Falk, 1989; Rivera, 1991). The data presented here demonstrate that lesbians can possess the requisite parenting skills and maintain intimate relationships of sufficient quality to raise psychologically healthy children. As such, they provide no empirical support for the proposition that lesbian families should be treated differently from other families in the legal arena. For example, these results do not support a blanket policy denying lesbian couples the right to adopt children or become foster parents, to retain child custody or visitation after divorce, or to use reproductive technology (Delaney, 1991; Editors of the Harvard Law Review, 1990; Polikoff, 1986, 1990; Ricketts & Achtenberg, 1989; Rosenblum, 1991). On the other hand, the present results do not imply that every couple, heterosexual or lesbian, is suitable to raise children. What these findings do suggest is that individuals making decisions regarding parental fitness need not depart from typical methods of psychosocial assessment because of the sexual orientation of the couple being evaluated (Kleber, Howell, & Tibbits-Kleber, 1986). Moreover, once lesbian-parent families are formed, these findings offer no justification for withholding from them the same legal protection and benefits offered to heterosexual-parent families. Specifically, they provide no basis on which to deny nonbiological lesbian mothers full parental status, either during the couple’s relationship or, if the parental relationship should end, afterward (Delaney, 1991; Polikoff, 1986, 1990). Rather, these results are consistent with appropriate case-by-case evaluation of lesbian-mother families based on the same criteria used with heterosexual-parent families. Although further research is necessary to fully understand the functioning of lesbian-parent families, existing findings provide sufficient evidence to support a reexamination of the disparate treatment sometimes accorded lesbian couples within the American legal system. Golombok, Perry, Burston, Murray, Mooney-Somers, Stevens, Golding, \*\*Children With Lesbian Parents: A Community Study. \*\*_Developmental Psychology. 39(1):20-33, January 2003._ > [@](#): > > The findings of the present investigation are largely in line with those of earlier studies of lesbian-mother families that pointed to positive mother-child relationships and well-adjusted children. No significant differences were identified between lesbian mothers and heterosexual mothers for most of the parenting variables, although lesbian mothers reported smacking their children less and engaged more frequently in imaginative and domestic play with their children than did heterosexual mothers. Regarding the children, no significant differences in psychiatric disorder were identified by a child psychologist who was unaware of family type or by mothers or teachers using the SDQ. Although there was a nonsignificant trend toward greater peer problems among children in lesbian-mother families as rated by mothers on the SDQ, the children themselves did not report greater problems with peers. With respect to gender development, there were no differences in gender-typed behavior between the children of lesbian parents and the children of heterosexual parents for either boys or girls. ---
**Author:** ![sghoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@sghoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sghoul)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warm-fuzzy-ad-with-lesbian-parents/214297/45 "2003-11-26T18:53:47Z")
I don’t think one can accuratley compare currenly Hetero/Homosexual parent upbringings. Homosexual couples are not capable of accidental children, and less likely to have a child with the wrong person (simply because they must plan and work harder to have one, such trials would help filter out less desirable parents). If Homosexual couples were able to have children all willy nilly, their successful parent levels may change (or not, which would say quite a bit). I would like to see a study that filters out all accidental or unwanted children from the equation. Also, what do they consider a well brought up child? One that gets good grades and never got into trouble? That doesn’t rule out other problems (such as poor work ethic, or hidden social problems). One that grows up and has a good standard of living? That doesn’t mean he isn’t miserable inside. That the child SAYS they grew up well? That doesn’t mean that everyone that knows them doesn’t wish they would drop off the face of the earth. In the end, it matters not. As far is LAW goes, any couple should be able to receive the law based benefits that current hetero couples receive, and should be considered for adopting children based on the same chriterion as hetero couples. I mean, the law lets hetro’s pop children out without ANY kind of test. One’s feels on whether Homosexual couples are good or bad should have no effect on law unless you can conclusively proove them to be wrong (and I don’t see that happening in this case). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warm-fuzzy-ad-with-lesbian-parents/214297.md?page=2)