# Warp Drive question (Star Trek) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 17, 2020, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633 "2020-03-17T06:31:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/21 "2020-03-17T19:36:39Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > And yet they had dialog that Romulans fought the Feds the first time without warp drive! Sometimes you really do have to “correct” the dialog in your head. And that was even retconned in _Enterprise_ where the Romulans and the Coalition of Planets (pre-Federation, that was even a retcon) both had warp drive. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/22 "2020-03-17T19:47:37Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > They use subspace radio, which is faster than light. (And often faster than even the fastest warp drive.) There is one TOS episode where Kirk is far enough away from Star Fleet that he must act before he receives permission. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/23 "2020-03-17T19:57:02Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > They use subspace radio, which is faster than light. (And often faster than even the fastest warp drive.) There were a few episodes where they talked about sending a message to starfleet, but by the time starfleet would respond the crisis would be over. So - every now and then - the delay in subspace was needed. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/24 "2020-03-17T20:03:15Z")
> [@simster](#): > > There were a few episodes where they talked about sending a message to starfleet, but by the time starfleet would respond the crisis would be over. So - every now and then - the delay in subspace was needed. I fan wanked that by subspace requiring repeater beacons, which were not available in all areas. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/25 "2020-03-17T20:04:04Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > But yeah they reformatted it for TNG so that 0 is 0, I think warp 1 is still light speed, and 10 is infinite. And then had Captain Riker go to Warp 13 in _All Good Things_. And then there is the idiotic concept of solar sailing on that _DS9_ episode… ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/26 "2020-03-17T20:13:55Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > It was originally supposed to be like Mach, but for light speed. But it was tweaked at times, I think first with trans warp. But yeah they reformatted it for TNG so that 0 is 0, I think warp 1 is still light speed, and 10 is infinite. > > I kind of wanted to ask, if there are any math people, what you would call that kind of scale, with two origins, one at 0 and one at infinity. Or more generally, any scale that uses something besides zero as origin, uses infinity or other special numbers, or more than one origin. Well now in game theory there arise “surreal numbers” like ω, ω·ω, ω[sup]ω[/sup], etc., or you might ponder topological models such as the Alexandroff long line, but anyway in real life the speed of light is already “infinitely fast”, and in Star Trek they go faster than warp 10 practically all the time 🙂 (just last week they used some Borg tech to shave some time off their hyperspace trip) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/27 "2020-03-17T20:23:32Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > And then had Captain Riker go to Warp 13 in _All Good Things_. > And then there is the idiotic concept of solar sailing on that _DS9_ episode… Riker was always a loose cannon who didn’t obey Star Fleet regulations. The DS9 solar sail I had managed not to think about. Thanks a lot! ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/28 "2020-03-17T20:33:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Well now in game theory there arise “surreal numbers” like ω, ω·ω, ωω, etc., I didn’t realize that there was an emoji for Troi’s Starfleet uniform! ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/29 "2020-03-17T20:48:02Z")
Here is some info. > **[Warp drive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive#Warp_velocities)** > > Black holes in fiction • Portable hole • Teleportation in fiction • Wormholes in fiction • Stargate • Warp drive • Hyperspace • Time travel in fiction > A warp drive or a drive enabling space warp is a fictional superluminal spacecraft propulsion system in many science fiction works, most notably Star Trek, and a subject of ongoing physics research. The general concept of "warp drive" was introduced by John W. Campbell in his 1957 novel Islands of Space and was popularized by the Star Trek serie... ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/30 "2020-03-17T22:13:41Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > There is one TOS episode where Kirk is far enough away from Star Fleet that he must act before he receives permission. The rest of the time he did it just for the hell of it 😃 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/31 "2020-03-17T23:10:55Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > The rest of the time he did it just for the hell of it 😃 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/32 "2020-03-18T00:11:07Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > There is one TOS episode where Kirk is far enough away from Star Fleet that he must act before he receives permission. That was the whole point of the ship’s five-year mission: To get it far enough away from Earth so Kirk would have to make important decisions on his own. Which he did most of the time, except when the plot required otherwise. On those occasions, he was always able to communicate with Star Fleet with absolutely no time lag. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/33 "2020-03-18T00:30:48Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > It is supposed to be sub-light, but it still does things it shouldn’t if it’s some sort of basic action-reaction drive. Like keep up with the warp drive when the saucer separates from the rest of the ship. There did mention some sort of warp momentum that could be maintained. > [@](#): > > Why you would use impulse engines to power a lifeboat of that type in deep, deep space is beyond me. You coudn’t outrun your enemies if you’re trying to get away, and your rescue by friendlies is in no way guaranteed. Neither are you likely to find a habitable planet before your supplies run out and you’re reduced to cannibalism and drinking your own urine. Yes, it wouldn’t be so much of a lifeboat, but the stardrive section would drop off the saucer and go into attack mode. So it would typically be leaving the saucer in a safe place. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/34 "2020-03-18T00:53:14Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, it wouldn’t be so much of a lifeboat, but the stardrive section would drop off the saucer and go into attack mode. So it would typically be leaving the saucer in a safe place. Absolute rubbish. The ship’s main armament is on the saucer section, making the whole idea of a “battle configuration” ludicrous. You know what I’d do if I were a hostile? I’d either ignore the rest of the ship altogether or just blast it out of space, and then take off after the saucer, which has absolutely no chance of getting away on impulse power. Then I’d take everyone on board as captives to sell in the Galaxy’s many slave markets before blowing it to smithereens (or just plain kill everyone and be done with it). I’d like to see a scene where Riker or Geordie or Worf is on the “battle bridge” and saying in total bewilderment “Hey … they’re not going to fight; they’re taking off after the saucer! Can they \*\*DO \*\*that?!?” :dubious: :eek: After bringing children on board the Federation’s flagship, this was by far the dumbest idea that ever found its way into the series. ---
**Author:** ![GMANCANADA](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gmancanada/32/2837_2.png) [@GMANCANADA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GMANCANADA)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/35 "2020-03-18T01:43:10Z")
**@Chronos** > [@](#): > > the ships travel at the speed of plot Never heard that before, that’s hilarious and so true. I was a huge fan growing up and I recently started rewatching the TOS episodes on Netflix, after not having seen them for 30 years. Big mistake. I’m almost through Season 1. It’s great for nostalgia, but very painful to watch as an adult. Better to have remembered them as they existed in my memory, not as they really were. On warp speed: as a fan and book reader, I was always under the impression the speed was an exponential curve. I now understand someone just clearly ret-conned that after someone else pointed out the massive inconsistencies between TOS episodes. Great example - in the S1 episode “Tomorrow is Yesterday”, (where they end up back at Earth in the 1960’s after encountering a “black star”), they need to slingshot around our Sun to get back to their own time. Between their warp drive and the sun’s pull Sulu says they’re going Warp 8 on the way to the sun and then after the slingshot and back toward earth, he says they’re “off the charts”. WTF? That whole trip should not even be an eye blink. Not to mention that time starts to go backward after Warp 8!!! Seriously - you just f-ing discovered time travel too?!?!? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/36 "2020-03-18T02:06:56Z")
> [@GMANCANADA](#): > > **@Chronos** Great example - in the S1 episode “Tomorrow is Yesterday”, (where they end up back at Earth in the 1960’s after encountering a “black star”), they need to slingshot around our Sun to get back to their own time. Between their warp drive and the sun’s pull Sulu says they’re going Warp 8 on the way to the sun and then after the slingshot and back toward earth, he says they’re “off the charts”. WTF? That whole trip should not even be an eye blink. > > Not to mention that time starts to go backward after Warp 8!!! Seriously - you just f-ing discovered time travel too?!?!? They discovered that in S1 E4 “The Naked Time.” Time started running backward when they mixed matter and anti-matter cold. \*In re \*the Sun: you’re assuming they flew in a straight line. Obviously, they had to spiral in toward the Sun for it to take as long as it did. \*Messenger \*did the same thing as it headed for Mercury. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/37 "2020-03-18T02:21:38Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > You know what I’d do if I were a hostile? I’d either ignore the rest of the ship altogether or just blast it out of space, and then take off after the saucer, which has absolutely no chance of getting away on impulse power. Then I’d take everyone on board as captives to sell in the Galaxy’s many slave markets before blowing it to smithereens (or just plain kill everyone and be done with it). The _Star Trek_ universe as re-imagined by Iain Banks. I’m hoping to see Vulcans retooled as blood-thirsty cannibals and Tribbles as the dominant intellectual life form of the Federation. That’ll probably be in the next season of _Discovery_, actually. There is really no point in looking for continuity or even basic logic in _Star Trek_. This is, after all, a series in which the characters routinely submit to being energetically decomposed to component atoms and replaced by a simulacrum at the other end, often being projected onto the surface of a planet whose atmospheric composition, radiation environment, and other essential aspects of environmental safety have not been quantitatively assessed. And it is clear that “Computer” is capable of running the entire ship and performing all major exploratory and analysis functions essentially independent of the crew who appear to be on the ship simply to give “Computer” some drama for entertainment. As for the warp drive and speeds, I’ll just note that some episode of _ST:TNG_ introduced the concept that operating the warp drive at speeds above a certain threshold was causing serious, irreparable damage to the fabric of spacetime, which was subsequently forgotten faster than Murphy Brown’s infant child once it posed some issue with plotting. Douglas Adams at least based his novels on consistent physics, even if it was absurdist made-up physics about Infinite Improbability Drives and the strange mathematics of bistro waiters. None of this mucking about with warp drives and subspace. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/38 "2020-03-18T02:26:10Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > (Various stuff) Holy shit, it really did take the collapse of civilization to get you posting again. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/39 "2020-03-18T02:56:46Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Holy shit, it really did take the collapse of civilization to get you posting again. Don’t disturb him - he’s wrapping up all his books and burying them in the front yard. ---
**Author:** ![GMANCANADA](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gmancanada/32/2837_2.png) [@GMANCANADA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GMANCANADA)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2020, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633/40 "2020-03-18T03:26:15Z")
**@ terentii** > [@](#): > > Time started running backward when they mixed matter and anti-matter cold. Yes, there’s lots of that “holy shit” stuff now that I rewatch, but I never thought to question originally. I just happened to watch “Tomorrow is Yesterday” a few days ago. As far as the direct line vs spiral route - given they’re going “off the charts” on the way back to earth, based on Jonathan Chance’s post (which I have no reason to question), that would make the straight line trip back max .6 seconds [7 minutes at SOL = 420 seconds, 420 / 729 times SOL) = .6]. So the +30 seconds of screen time it took them would be a very large spiral route! [As a side note: I’ve never understood why in some episodes the ships phasers fire like a laser beam, but in others they are like photon torpedoes? Was there ever a ret-conn explanation for that?] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-drive-question-star-trek/849633.md?page=3)