# warp speed!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [March 1, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426 "2003-03-01T18:57:48Z")
**Posts on this page:** 19
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@raisinbread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raisinbread)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/1 "2003-03-01T18:57:48Z")
I recently came across [url=“[http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.merry/specs3.htm](http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.merry/specs3.htm)”]this little chart and I find it interesting to see what the translation of warp factors into speed.
Look at the bottom where it says at warp ten the ship would occupy every point in the universe. Where would these people get this idea? Plus warp 9.99 requires infinite energy while we live in a universe where to accellerate an object to the speed of light one must use infinite energy.
Someone explain this, please.[/color]
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### Author:  [@raisinbread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raisinbread)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/2 "2003-03-01T18:58:50Z")
sob, i can’t do anything right today
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/3 "2003-03-01T19:07:25Z")
Warp speed as used in _Star Trek_ is either:
1-Fast enough so the _Enterprise/Defiant/Voyager_ could arrive in the nick of time to save the day, or
2-Slow enough so they wouldn’t get there in time and the landing party/away team would have to solve their own problem.
Drama determines its value, not physics.
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### Author:  [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/4 "2003-03-01T19:34:53Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Look at the bottom where it says at warp ten the ship would occupy every point in the universe.
Which is untrue, of course… we saw a Starfleet shuttle reach Warp 10 (allegedly), and it _didn’t_ occupy all points in the universe… it only caused people to transform into big lizards.
> [@](#):
>
> Where would these people get this idea?
Fancy-shmancy treknobabble. Also note that the alleged speed (nevermind that “speed” is unimportant in space) of Full Impulse is 1/4 that of lightspeed… which has been contradicted many, many, many times in the TV show (and, more recently, in the movie _Nemesis_).
> [@](#):
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> Plus warp 9.99 requires infinite energy while we live in a universe where to accellerate an object to the speed of light one must use infinite energy.
Well, the nature of real theoretical warp drives just has an object “warping” space around it (none of this Subspace crap), thus allowing it to travel faster than light in relation to the rest of the universe, but travelling slower than light in its little bubble of warped space, maintaining relativity.
Of course, such a warp drive requires exotic matter and negative mass, not just antimatter and dilithium crystals.
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### Author:  [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/5 "2003-03-01T20:14:47Z")
The warp factors used in _Star Trek: The Original Series_ differ from the ones used in the later series. While not canon, the _Star Fleet Technical Manual_ (Ballantine, 1975)–published when the original 79-episode series was the entire canon–translated the factor as the cube root of how fast the ship was traveling in subspace (WFx) in relation to light in unwarped space (_c_). Thus, Warp Factor 8 was 512_c_.
For _Star Trek: The Next Generation_, the producers decided for some reason that the warp factors were calculated on a logarithmic scale where the speed of light was WF1 and infinite speed was WF10–hence the comment about an object at WF10 occupying every point in the universe. There were a few instances in _TOS_ where a ship reached a double-digit warp factor, and even one episode in the Saturday-morning animated version (again, usually not considered canon) where the _Enterprise_ reached WF36.
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### Author:  [@skaterboarder87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skaterboarder87)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/6 "2003-03-01T20:52:08Z")
Oh man! I came into this thread thinking was about the Super Nintendo space shooter of the same name (Warp Speed). I can’t express how disappointed I am ☹
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### Author:  [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/7 "2003-03-02T00:12:31Z")
> [@](#):
>
> from _SPOOFE_
> Which is untrue, of course… we saw a Starfleet shuttle reach Warp 10 (allegedly), and it didn’t occupy all points in the universe… it only caused people to transform into big lizards.
Yes, but the problem was that Tom Paris didn’t actually activate the warp drive – he accidentally turned on the Infinite Improbability Drive. (And he routed energy to it from the Goofy Plot Point Boosters).
> [@](#):
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> from _brianmelendez_
> For Star Trek: The Next Generation, the producers decided for some reason that the warp factors were calculated on a logarithmic scale where the speed of light was WF1 and infinite speed was WF10–hence the comment about an object at WF10 occupying every point in the universe.
I’m not so sure they had even decided this by TNG… or else one of the writers didn’t get the memo when he had the future Enterprise going Warp 13 in the series finale.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/8 "2003-03-02T01:47:34Z")
But that was The Future, so it’s OK, because they have completely re-invented the warp drive again.
Anyway, it doesn’t seem to matter as _Nemesis_ seems to completely contradict that future, since
Data was still arrive in the future sequences of _All Good Things_
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### Author:  [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/9 "2003-03-02T03:29:54Z")
Anthing that happened in the future in All Good Things was only a possibility not a certainty.
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### Author:  [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/10 "2003-03-02T03:55:41Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Monstre \*
> \*\*I’m not so sure they had even decided this by TNG… or else one of the writers didn’t get the memo when he had the future Enterprise going Warp 13 in the series finale. \*\*
I think that I remember seeing the point about the new warp-factor scale (with WF 10 being infinite speed) in _Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual_, which came out in 1991 while the series was still being produced. But I don’t have my copy handy.
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### Author:  [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2003, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/11 "2003-03-02T04:04:14Z")
You know, it’s not such a ridiculous idea to rescale the warp system when technology advances to a certain degree. For instance, if one ship has a maximum speed of warp 9.999 and one has a max speed of 9.9999, it would be difficult to tell that they’re vastly different. So, if you rename 9.9 to 10, 9.99 to 11, 9.999 to 12, and 9.9999 to 13, you make the numbers a bit easier to deal with.
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### Author:  [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/12 "2003-03-02T04:53:27Z")
Just for the record, for warp speeds of **Warp 9 and below** , the _Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual_ officially declares the following to be the formula:
Warp X = X[sup]3.333333…[/sup] times the speed of light
Of course, this contradicts the old _Star Fleet Technical Manual_ published in the 1970s, which said that Warp X = X[sup]3[/sup] times the speed of light. But then again, the old 1970s _Star Fleet Technical Manual_ was never officially canonized by Paramount.
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### Author:  [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2003, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/13 "2003-03-02T06:43:59Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Sock Munkey \*
> \*\*Anthing that happened in the future in All Good Things was only a possibility not a certainty. \*\*
Of course this is true, but the point is that under the 1-10 scale (which puts warp 10 as “infinite speed”), Warp 13 is not even a possibility. There could be no such thing. Unless as another post suggested, the warp scale were completely renumbered, and in that case, the “improvement” to warp 13 would completely fail to impress me… 😉
(Well, the top speed of my car used to be 100 MPH, but we’ve changed the scale so that the old 100 MPH is now called 150 MPH! See how the technology is improved?)
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### Author:  [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2003, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/14 "2003-03-02T08:10:36Z")
> [@](#):
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> Anyway, it doesn’t seem to matter as Nemesis seems to completely contradict that future, since… (spoiler snipped)
What? You’re ignoring the future contradiction that happened in _Generations_? Here’s a hint: It wasn’t a _Sovereign_-class ship that we saw with a third warp nacelle…
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### Author:  [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2003, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/15 "2003-03-02T11:08:25Z")
Um… what? If you’re talking about the last scene of Generations, that wasn’t a ship with three warp nacelles, it was a Nebula class cruiser with your standard two nacelles and an overhead mission specific pod.
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### Author:  [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/16 "2003-03-02T13:11:36Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \*
> **What? You’re ignoring the future contradiction that happened in _Generations_?**
Another contradiction from _Generations_: Scotty watches Kirk’s “death” in the El-Aurian incident (which actually transports Kirk to the Nexus). But in the _Next Generation_ episode “Relics,” Scotty is revived after 75 years in transporter stasis, and immediately speculates that Kirk has come out looking for him.
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### Author:  [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/17 "2003-03-02T14:00:56Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Monstre \*
> \*\*Of course this is true, but the point is that under the 1-10 scale (which puts warp 10 as “infinite speed”), Warp 13 is not even a possibility. There could be no such thing. Unless as another post suggested, the warp scale were completely renumbered, and in that case, the “improvement” to warp 13 would completely fail to impress me… 😉
>
> (Well, the top speed of my car used to be 100 MPH, but we’ve changed the scale so that the old 100 MPH is now called 150 MPH! See how the technology is improved?) \*\*
I’ve heard that Marshall is the company who makes the warp drives for all the new Federation ships.
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### Author:  [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/18 "2003-03-02T19:24:32Z")
Trying to nail down Star Trek techno-babble as fact is a dead-end game. Even within single seasons, the official “canon” has conflicting information. As good entertainment as the various series were, looking to them for consistency is a losing proposition.
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### Author:  [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warp-speed/158426/19 "2003-03-02T20:59:52Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Aesiron \*
> \*\*Um… what? If you’re talking about the last scene of Generations, that wasn’t a ship with three warp nacelles, it was a Nebula class cruiser with your standard two nacelles and an overhead mission specific pod. \*\*
No – **SPOOFE** ’s point was that the ship that was in the future vision in “All Good Things” (the TNG series finale) was still the Enterprise D – the Galaxy class ship in the series – upgraded with a third warp nacelle and other kick-ass improvements (like “warp 13”). But **that** ship was pretty much destroyed (except for the crash-landed saucer section) in **Generations**.