# Warrantless wiretapping extended by Senate with Obama's blessing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409 "2012-12-28T18:37:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/41 "2012-12-30T21:25:48Z")
Is it too late to discuss what the bill actually does, or are we going to take the moderately misleading titles of the Huffington Post as gospel? [Here](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121391360949290049.html) is a brief run down if not. In particular > [@](#): > > The Act requires individual FISA Court orders based on probable cause for targeting Americans, not only when they are inside the U.S. but also, for the first time, when they are outside of the United States. The original bill > [@](#): > > Allows the government to conduct surveillance of “a U.S person located outside of the U.S with probable cause they are an agent of a foreign power” for up to one week (168 hours) without a warrant, increased from the previous 48 hours, as long as the FISA court is notified at the time such surveillance begins, and an application as usually required for surveillance authorization is submitted by the government to FISA within those 168 hours [Cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act_of_1978_Amendments_Act_of_2008)It’s not like they are running around slapping a tap on your phone just because they feel like it. Essentially what is happening is that they are already tapping known or suspected foreign terrorists. This is legal, and has been going on since 1978, under Carter. With this bill, if a US citizen calls some foreign terrorist on the phone, and the spooks are already listening in, they don’t have to get a warrant right away before they can continue listening. They do have to submit it to a court, but they don’t have to drop the tap instantly. On preview, this probably won’t do any good. Have fun. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/42 "2012-12-30T21:31:37Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > The threat is non-existant? You have got to be FUCKING kidding me! You actually believe everyone on Earth loves us, and nobody has the means or opportunity to destroy us? Well, I don’t know about you guys, but I live in terror of what Mustafa the goat farmer in west bubble fuck is up to today. I’m glad we routinely bomb those dangerous goat farmers - holding the outdated but incredibly dangerous to me and my family 10,000 miles away - rifles into paste (as well as their families and neighbors, and on occasion the first responders cause we gotta double tap that shit) using our mighty and courageous drones. As for our civil liberties? You can have them all as long as they keep Mustafa off my porch. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/43 "2012-12-30T22:51:36Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > The threat is non-existant? You have got to be FUCKING kidding me! You actually believe everyone on Earth loves us, and nobody has the means or opportunity to destroy us? Yes, the threat is essentially non-existent. No, I am not fucking kidding you. I am not even pretty serious snuggling kidding you. No, lots of people hate us, a great many of them because of our irrational and paranoid responses to 9/11. No, pretty much nobody except large nation-states like China or the USA has the means to destroy the USA. The most “terrorists” will ever be able to do is kill a few of us from time to time, which is hardly worth worrying about to any extent greater than its actual statistical impact on our life expectancy, which is as close to zero as makes no odds. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/44 "2012-12-30T23:13:55Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > The threat is non-existant? You have got to be FUCKING kidding me! You actually believe everyone on Earth loves us, and nobody has the means or opportunity to destroy us? 3000 or so people died on 9/11, ten years ago, following the actions of a dozen desperate, suicidal madmen. You’ve actually lost more soldiers than that just fighting the stupid, unending, one sided War on a Hazy Concept - almost double that, in fact. To say nothing of the wounded and the psychologically fucked. Meanwhile, anywhere between 300 thousand and a million Iraqis have lost their lives (the overwhelming majority being civilians caught in the crossfire or otherwise winding up in the “collateral damage” column), about 50 thousand more in Afghanistan & Pakistan, and the death toll keeps mounting up. There’s no way to know how many more have been summarily abducted (I’m sorry, “renditioned”) by the CIA, or been blown up in covert drone strikes. All with your tacit blessing. Possibly your active cheering on, even. You’ve plowed over 5000 billion dollars into doing all of this. That’s billions with a b. Who has the means of destroying whom, and who oughta be existentially afraid ? And when you’re perfectly fine with slaughtering that many people so long as you can tell yourselves it could/will/has saved just one American life which makes it all worth it, why _shouldn’t_ they hate your criminally insane guts ? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/45 "2012-12-30T23:17:39Z")
Y’know, for once, I actually (mostly) agree with **Shodan**. I still think that warrantless wiretapping, even of foreign nationals, is a bad idea in principle: the Fourth Amendment applies to “the People”, not just to citizens. But as long as it’s only foreign communications, it really doesn’t seem like such a big deal. Why does that not seem to usually be brought up in discussions of this issue? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/46 "2012-12-31T01:37:03Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > Yet another example of the encroachment of authoritarianism in the name of protecting freedom. Since they’re just continuing something that already happened, I think we’ve already been pretty thoroughly encroached. My personal take on this stuff, having grown up on The Man from Uncle, James Bond and comic books, is that any governmental or private agency with the ability to do whatever it takes to catch the crooks is doing just that, whether it’s legal or not, and they’re sweeping it all under the rug as best they can and when somebody finds out they’re doing it, they throw a sacrificial goat onto the fire to cover their asses and soldier on. So, this whole deal is kinda redundant. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/47 "2012-12-31T02:17:03Z")
Conflating Afghanistan and Iraq weakens your case. We got snookered into Iraq, we HAD to invade Afghanistan, because their non-existant government left the entire world vulnerable to madmen, I also understand it’s fashionable to see the US as ebil, but we’re the ones who get killed on your behalf. I also vehemently oppose nationals having Constitutional rights, but that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/48 "2013-01-01T17:51:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Y’know, for once, I actually (mostly) agree with **Shodan**. I still think that warrantless wiretapping, even of foreign nationals, is a bad idea in principle: the Fourth Amendment applies to “the People”, not just to citizens. But as long as it’s only foreign communications, it really doesn’t seem like such a big deal. Why does that not seem to usually be brought up in discussions of this issue? Considering that [our current government has been known to define “all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants” in drone attacks](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html), I think that the idea that it’s ok because they’re just going after them furriner terrorists is a dangerous precedent. I also believe that our rights are being incrementally eroded, and nobody notices because they think it’s okay if the guy on their side is doing it even if they would loudly protest when the opposition does it. I’m sure we would all be safer if the government could just have 24/7 video surveillance in all of our homes, and it wouldn’t surprise me if the day comes when something that invasive is justified by those who will sacrifice anything for the sake of a scrap of safety or think that privacy doesn’t matter if you have nothing to hide. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/49 "2013-01-01T21:06:49Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > If the information gets misused, you won’t be suing anybody. It’s hard to launch a lawsuit from Gitmo. > > Jesus wept. > > Why do think that matters a whit? Throwing an innocent man in jail without a trial may be illegal, but so what? A government which breaks one law can break another. I’m not a Muslim, or anything like it. The FBI learned their lesson after the Oklahoma City bombing and the Waco and Ruby Ridge shootouts. They don’t fuck around with redneck boys any more. And no, it’s not hard to sue people from Gitmo. I have plenty of family members who could pay a lawyer and handle all the legwork from outside. And no, no one is going to be throwing my 70-year-old retired parents and and in-laws in Gitmo. Seriously, dude. This is crazy talk. REALLY crazy. This is America, and I’m not Muslim, and that’s that. Local cops could conceivably do some BS to me, but Timothy McVeigh put a STOP to the FEDERAL harrassment of rednecks, permanently. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/50 "2013-01-02T04:28:07Z")
It’s easy to sue from Gitmo, but it’s hard to sue when the details of the state’s trangressions against you are State Secrets. > [@Shodan](#): > > On preview, this probably won’t do any good. Have fun. We haven’t quite whipped up a full mouth froth yet, but we’re trying.😉 Your input is appreciated. I noticed a few wiki articles that may be of interest to readers at home: [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act) [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act_of_1978_Amendments_Act_of_2008) [NSA warrantless surveillance controversy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/51 "2013-01-02T04:44:47Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > … Timothy McVeigh put a STOP to the FEDERAL harrassment of rednecks, permanently. > [@](#): > > Federal agents arrested dozens of members of the white supremacist Aryan Brotherhood of Texas on Friday and charged them with murder, kidnapping, racketeering and conspiracy to distribute methamphetamine and cocaine. > … > In an investigation led by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives …[RIGHT][CITE](http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-11-09/national/35503160_1_abt-gang-members-federal-agents)[/RIGHT] CMC ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/52 "2013-01-02T14:20:48Z")
Extraordinary renditions [continue](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/renditions-continue-under-obama-despite-due-process-concerns/2013/01/01/4e593aa0-5102-11e2-984e-f1de82a7c98a_story.html?hpid=z4) as well. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/53 "2013-01-02T14:36:18Z")
Just the other day I got a fund raising call from the ACLU asking me to up my monthly donation. The caller’s pitch was all about how even though Obama got re-elected, his opponents are still spreading lies about him and trying to undermine his progressive agenda. I’m not sure what Obama they were talking about… (and don’t get me wrong, I voted for him, but not because of his stance on civil liberties). ---
**Author:** ![furdmort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@furdmort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furdmort)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/54 "2013-01-02T14:53:18Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I couldn’t give less of a fuck if the government wants to listen to my phone calls or read my emails. > > If the information gets misused, I’ll sue their bitch asses for several million dollars, and get paid. Otherwise, I’m not doing anything illegal. > > **Besides, the wiretapping is only for phone calls made to or from a foreign country, AFAIK. It’s not like they listen in when I’m calling my wife/daughter/etc..** Yeah, but they’ll be listening to me (a US citizen living in Germany) talking to my sisters and mother (all US citizens in the US.) For what? Nothing more than the chance that some eavesdropper will mistake an innocent comment for something sinister and get us all a closer look and more scrutiny. FFS. There are people who need to be watched, for whom you get the appropriate court order for wiretapping. When the citizens begin to approve of having their liberties and privacy taken away, the terrorists have won and paved the way for the dictators. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/55 "2013-01-02T17:41:19Z")
> [@furdmort](#): > > Yeah, but they’ll be listening to me (a US citizen living in Germany) talking to my sisters and mother (all US citizens in the US.) For what? Nothing more than the chance that some eavesdropper will mistake an innocent comment for something sinister and get us all a closer look and more scrutiny. > > FFS. There are people who need to be watched, for whom you get the appropriate court order for wiretapping. > > When the citizens begin to approve of having their liberties and privacy taken away, the terrorists have won and paved the way for the dictators. Somehow I doubt every word of your conversation is being listened to carefully. There’s probably a computer listening for “trigger” words, Arabic words, etc.. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/56 "2013-01-02T17:43:36Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > CMC I couldn’t care less what happens to the Aryan Brotherhood. A lot of those groups are terrorists. Rednecks are people who leave others alone. Terrorists DON’T leave other people alone. Randy Weaver was a redneck, because he was living in the woods, not bothering anyone. Arguably David Koresh wasn’t bothering anyone either, and certainly his followers didn’t deserve a fiery death. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/57 "2013-01-02T18:23:29Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > … Arguably David Koresh wasn’t bothering anyone either, and certainly his followers didn’t deserve a fiery death. Deserve? No, but when you set the building your in on fire you should prolly expect a fiery death might just result. CMC ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/58 "2013-01-02T20:03:28Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Conflating Afghanistan and Iraq weakens your case. We got snookered into Iraq, we HAD to invade Afghanistan, because their non-existant government left the entire world vulnerable to madmen, I also understand it’s fashionable to see the US as ebil, but we’re the ones who get killed on your behalf. I also vehemently oppose nationals having Constitutional rights, but that’s just me. Snookered, schmookered. I’m sure it means a lot to the people who got their relatives blown to bits. It’s certainly germane to the case of you going to insane lengths out of paranoia and fear, isn’t it ? And your own government is the one conflating the two, since the two were and are considered part and parcel of the GWOT. As for getting killed on my behalf, considering the actions of your country quite understandably leads to an increase in Us vs. Them sentiment all over the Muslim world and to indiscriminate terrorist retaliation against others than you, forgive me if I’m not tripping over myself to offer my thanks and praise. You have my heartfelt permission to stop that altruistic sacrifice, though. Stop helping us, please ;). ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/59 "2013-01-02T22:18:32Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Deserve? No, but when you set the building your in on fire you should prolly expect a fiery death might just result. > > CMC Somehow I’m guessing that there’d have been no fire if there hadn’t been a siege and an invasion. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409/60 "2013-01-02T22:54:10Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Somehow I’m guessing that there’d have been no fire if there hadn’t been a siege and an invasion. Which wouldn’t have happened if the response to a search warrant hadn’t been to shoot the warrant servers. CMC [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrantless-wiretapping-extended-by-senate-with-obamas-blessing/645409.md?page=4)