# Warren Student Loan Forgiveness Plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2019, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931 "2019-04-23T12:44:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/201 "2019-04-25T19:57:02Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Presumably “whether loans are outstanding or not” would be extended to “whether the recipient went to college or not.” Because there are probably people who didn’t go to school who would have gone at the discounted price. So basically it’s a one time case payout to anyone between the ages of 22 and 35 or something So a guy age 30 who never had any designs on going to college and was satisfied taking over his father’s farm gets his “tuition” reimbursed, but a 36 year old with loans outstanding does not? ---
**Author:** ![TimfromNapa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@TimfromNapa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimfromNapa)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/202 "2019-04-25T19:59:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > This idea has good roots, but as usual is overly simplistic. > > Rather than just dumping 90% of student debt, let’s start with allowing it to be discharged in Chapter 7 bankruptcy, as it was, once upon a time. Or perhaps a special court where the student shows insolvency without actually going thru formal bankruptcy. > > Then, let’s crack down on crappy high pressure diploma mills, where a lot of the bad debt originates. > > Free College? Ok, let’s us start by making sure that two year colleges across the USA are nearly free, with small fees. In many areas they already are. So a easy, relatively inexpensive change. > > Then a Federal scholarship program _for those who graduated from a two year college_,\* but will have issues on paying for the next two years. Before we start writing checks and giving away freebies to someone who may just drop out after their freshman year, lets us see they are committed to a higher education by finishing two years at a community or other 2 year college first. > > - based on financial need. Maybe you should consider running for President. One more candidate, with common sense no less, couldn’t hurt. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/203 "2019-04-25T20:11:01Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So a guy age 30 who never had any designs on going to college and was satisfied taking over his father’s farm gets his “tuition” reimbursed, but a 36 year old with loans outstanding does not? Maybe we make people swear under oath that they would have gone to college if tuition hadn’t been so high and give them an amount of money equal to difference in wages between their actually career path and their projected (college educated) career path for the rest of their lives. This is all getting pretty ridiculous 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/204 "2019-04-25T20:29:03Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Snipping mine. > > Because they want to? Heaven forbid we let our children do things because they enjoy them instead of because it will look good to a scholarship committee. Guess what? No one is stopping them from doing what they want. However, society shouldn’t be obligated to pay for other people’s short sightedness or to indulge pointless hobbies. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/205 "2019-04-25T20:42:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Guess what? No one is stopping them from doing what they want. However, society shouldn’t be obligated to pay for other people’s short sightedness or to indulge pointless hobbies. Your comment doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the comment you quoted. Chisquirrel is talking about kids participating in extracurricular activities (debate team, German club, track and field, volunteer work, etc., etc.) solely or primarily for the purpose of having something to write on their scholarship forms. How does that relate to what you wrote? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/206 "2019-04-25T21:05:48Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Maybe we make people swear under oath that they would have gone to college if tuition hadn’t been so high and give them an amount of money equal to difference in wages between their actually career path and their projected (college educated) career path for the rest of their lives. > This is all getting pretty ridiculous 🙂 I think Warren’s proposal is pretty ridiculous and the patch kits that are proposed to be applied to it to make it work even somewhat are making it moreso. Respectfully, yours is like that. So, what if this farmer swears, under penalty of perjury, that if tuition had not been so high, he would have been a brain surgeon. Not just any regular brain surgeon, mind you, but the best damn brain surgeon in the world and he estimates, conservatively, that he would have been a multi-millionaire. First, how would you ever prove that he swore falsely? Second, how do you estimate his career salary? What if he says he would have moved to (pick locality where income for brain surgeon is the highest)? I mean, his mother swears she remembers him talking about that! He always complained that he never wanted to be a farmer! I swear! ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/207 "2019-04-25T21:20:42Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Your comment doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the comment you quoted. Chisquirrel is talking about kids participating in extracurricular activities (debate team, German club, track and field, volunteer work, etc., etc.) solely or primarily for the purpose of having something to write on their scholarship forms. How does that relate to what you wrote? Because doing something in demand to earn something you’d like is the whole basis of the world’s economy. No one is arguing against people doing what they enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/208 "2019-04-25T21:25:38Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Respectfully, yours is like that. Woosh ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/209 "2019-04-25T21:43:31Z")
1. Well since the federally guaranteed student loan program is the root cause of the skyrocketing tuition cost, maybe the government should be part of the solution. Washing away all of the student loan debt doesn’t seem to me be the solution though. I’m big on personal accountability. Since the amount and terms of these loans was known by the individuals that borrowed the money, I have little sympathy. And, yes I was opposed to the bank bail outs as well. 2. The federal government providing incentives to state governments to construct more universities, or increase enrollment at existing universities might be a good solution. By creating more supply to offset the demand created by the guaranteed student loan program, tuition rates should come down. 3. And it’s not the fluff degrees that some students get that is the problem. It’s that **65% of students that start college never finish**. So the majority of these people that have student loan debt, have **no** degree. It’s like borrowing money to buy a car or a house, and you never receive it. Again, it comes back to personal accountability. Don’t enroll in college and rack up student loans if you don’t have the where-with-all to follow through. ---
**Author:** ![pigtwo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pigtwo/32/18234_2.png) [@pigtwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pigtwo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/210 "2019-04-25T22:08:45Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I think the idea is that if you are a Division I football prospect with a chance to make the NFL, then great, this will not affect you. > > But if you are a women’s volleyball player, for example, whose talent level was barely good enough to get a scholarship and have no designs on taking your volleyball career any further, then why, first, as a parent dedicate thousands of dollars to these volleyball camps and travel teams starting when the child is in the womb, and second, once you start school, why devote countless hours to practicing volleyball and travelling, and playing on the team, when the government is going to pay your way anyways. > > It’s not just sports, but also academics. I remember my senior year filling out applications and writing essays to different scholarship boards explaining what experiences I could share by growing up in a small town, what I would do to educate people on the evils of drunk driving, or how I felt the Lions Club was a positive influence that could help the community. > > Also, more importantly, was putting my nose to the grindstone to get good grades and studying for the ACT to get good test scores to get into school. Engaging in extracurricular activities was also considered (at least we were told) important. > > If it is all free anyways, why should a high school student do anything but make the bare minimum to pass if he or she has no designs on an elite school? I haven’t read the whole thread(only the most recent conversations) so forgive me if this has already been mentioned. If I understand correctly your concern is that if college is free why would high school students try hard in academics or sports if it’s all free? The answer could be that not all schools would accept you if you have poor grades or do not have some other extracurricular achievement. There would be a free college that would have to accept you, but similar to private high schools, there would be better schools that can have admission requirements. Those could be free or paid. The way it seems to me that “free college” should work would be just an extension of high school. Albeit “free college” in this scenario is a little different than just an extension of high school. Choosing a college would largely be the same as it is now. Except there are a sub-set of colleges that would be free. If a student had the money or academic achievement they could pay(or get scholarships) to more prestigious colleges. Paid colleges would still work the same as they do now. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/211 "2019-04-25T22:16:00Z")
As I said above, the current college drop out rate is 65%. If all college was _free_, I would expect that rate to increase substantially, especially if paying for college isn’t an incentive to stay and finish. What a waste of educational resources. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/212 "2019-04-25T22:21:29Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Woosh You got me. 🙂 > [@pigtwo](#): > > I haven’t read the whole thread(only the most recent conversations) so forgive me if this has already been mentioned. If I understand correctly your concern is that if college is free why would high school students try hard in academics or sports if it’s all free? The answer could be that not all schools would accept you if you have poor grades or do not have some other extracurricular achievement. There would be a free college that would have to accept you, but similar to private high schools, there would be better schools that can have admission requirements. Those could be free or paid. > > The way it seems to me that “free college” should work would be just an extension of high school. Albeit “free college” in this scenario is a little different than just an extension of high school. Choosing a college would largely be the same as it is now. Except there are a sub-set of colleges that would be free. > > If a student had the money or academic achievement they could pay(or get scholarships) to more prestigious colleges. Paid colleges would still work the same as they do now. Then what have we accomplished by paying for the “free” college? Businesses will look at the free college as an “extension of high school” and on job listings instead of saying “bachelor’s degree required” it will say “non-free college degree required.” You will still hear the cries about how rich kids get to go to good schools, but poor people are stuck with the shitty free ones. What happens when middle class kids take out loans so that they don’t have to go to the free schools? We are right back where we started, except we have paid a metric shitton of money to make some schools “free.” ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/213 "2019-04-25T22:24:19Z")
Sorry for missing it, but about your point of how students would try because there are minimum acceptance requirements, that was what I meant. Not just the minimum to pass high school, but the minimum to be accepted to college. No need to try any harder because there are now no such thing as scholarships since it is all free anyways. ---
**Author:** ![pigtwo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pigtwo/32/18234_2.png) [@pigtwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pigtwo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/214 "2019-04-25T22:43:05Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Then what have we accomplished by paying for the “free” college? Businesses will look at the free college as an “extension of high school” and on job listings instead of saying “bachelor’s degree required” it will say “non-free college degree required.” > > You will still hear the cries about how rich kids get to go to good schools, but poor people are stuck with the shitty free ones. What happens when middle class kids take out loans so that they don’t have to go to the free schools? We are right back where we started, except we have paid a metric shitton of money to make some schools “free.” You’ve accomplished the same thing that “cheap” colleges and community colleges currently accomplishing. People still go to those today. Except that they’re now accessible to everyone. The world is more complex than terrible college on one side and golden perfect college on the other. As I mentioned this is basically the situations high schools are in right now. If you want to send your kid to a great high school it will cost a lot but will probably give them an advantage. If you can’t afford it at least you can still go to a “free” high school. I disagree that all students would go to paid colleges. I think with free colleges being an option the value proposition for paid colleges would change and taking out loans would be less attractive. With their being a substantially cheaper option for college the market could decide the price of the paid colleges. Currently if you NEED a college degree to get any sort of reasonably good job you’re forced to get a degree. So you’re essentially a captured customer forced to pay whatever. This is inherently non-capitalistic and thus the price can spiral out of control. Providing a set of free colleges would at least mitigate this some. Obviously some people would still take out loans to go to better schools. But plenty of people would use the free colleges and be perfectly fine. I went to a not very good college and got a fairly good job. There would plenty of room for people getting degrees from not great schools. ---
**Author:** ![pigtwo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pigtwo/32/18234_2.png) [@pigtwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pigtwo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/215 "2019-04-25T22:47:28Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Sorry for missing it, but about your point of how students would try because there are minimum acceptance requirements, that was what I meant. Not just the minimum to pass high school, but the minimum to be accepted to college. No need to try any harder because there are now no such thing as scholarships since it is all free anyways. The free colleges wouldn’t have acceptance requirements but the paid ones could. And there would still be scholarships for the paid colleges. Obviously there would be a lot of details but I could imagine better free colleges that do have acceptance requirements. Maybe there is some terrible ramification of that but at first I don’t see why there couldn’t be. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/216 "2019-04-25T22:48:21Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > If it is all free anyways, why should a high school student do anything but make the bare minimum to pass if he or she has no designs on an elite school? I didn’t get the part that loan forgiveness equals free tuition. I thought people got loans for a portion of the cost of college and paid the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/217 "2019-04-25T23:14:31Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > You will still hear the cries about how rich kids get to go to good schools, but poor people are stuck with the shitty free ones. What happens when middle class kids take out loans so that they don’t have to go to the free schools? We are right back where we started, except we have paid a metric shitton of money to make some schools “free.” I don’t think that this argument works. If rich kids are going to paid schools and middleclass kids are taking out loans to go to paid school then the free college shouldn’t cost a metric shitton since very few people would be left to go to free college. We also wouldn’t be no where we would have effectively means tested free college and given poor kids a better education. Really, i think there are two separate issues being discussed in the thread free college and student loan forgiveness. I think that the government should provide its citizens enough education that they can take care of themselves. It doesn’t seem like a high school graduate has the skills to take care of themselves. I would guess that an AA degree or some trade school would be the minimum so I’d support that being free. Beyond that I’d like to see states fund higher education better. It’s embarrassing that CU Boulder only receives [4.5%](https://www.colorado.edu/bfp/funding-overview/how-cu-boulder-funded) of its funding from the state of Colorado and I would support another Morrill Act. That’s not free college though. Separate from that is what to do about the student loan crisis. I think were going to have a major economic problem as millennials are leeching off boomers to deal with their massive debt. We’re seeing major milestones being delayed like marriage or buying a house due to the debt load. I’m not sure that moving individual debt to societal debt really helps the situation though. The millennials already have a lot of the previous generations debts coming due so I generally don’t think this will help. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/218 "2019-04-25T23:57:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sure. See [here (PDF - the relevant bits are on pages 6 & 7](https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/111th-congress-2009-2010/costestimate/amendreconprop.pdf): You really need to step up your dot-connecting game if you think that supports your stated assertion. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/219 "2019-04-26T00:01:03Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You really need to step up your dot-connecting game if you think that supports your stated assertion. Which part(s) of my assertion do you feel are yet unsupported? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/220 "2019-04-26T00:26:54Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I don’t think that this argument works. If rich kids are going to paid schools and middleclass kids are taking out loans to go to paid school then the free college shouldn’t cost a metric shitton since very few people would be left to go to free college. Walk us through that one? The cost of college is not a function of how many people are attending, if that’s what you’re suggesting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931.md?page=12)