# Warren Student Loan Forgiveness Plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2019, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931 "2019-04-23T12:44:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/241 "2019-04-26T22:11:11Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Humanity has been gathering knowledge for millennia. You think its possible to learn all of that in 12 years by the age of 18? Why do you want to limit humanity’s potential? Explain how what you are quoting supports your assertion about limiting humanity’s potential. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/242 "2019-04-26T22:29:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I do want my children (and grandchildren) to have it better than me. That’s why I don’t want them burdened with these massively expensive pieces of economic idiocy. > > Regards, > Shodan > [@Airbeck](#): > > So you actually want your kids and grandkids burdened with ever increasing student loan debt? You do know this problem is getting worse over time right? You do realize you are kicking the can down the road and you are screwing over our subsequent generations simply out of spite right? I’m not arguing that this exact plan is perfect or that we should definitely do this, but the attitude of “well I got screwed, so dammit my kids and grandkids had better get screwed just as much!!!” seems abhorrent to me. It works out okay for the individual outliers who will presumably avoid the pitfalls of crushing student loan debt even WITHOUT such a program in place (which suggests that paying for the program would be a net liability to their personal balance sheets). When one begins with such presumptions, opposition to the proposal is kind of a no-brainer. (N.B. I offer no assurances that this describes the basis of **Shodan** ’s objection. I would be grateful for his ACTUAL objections (and their foundations) in the event that it doesn’t.) That said, the notion that increased funding would be absorbed primarily by the entities currently benefiting from the _current_ funding levels is a factor that could use some consideration. I’m reminded of my time in Hawaii, when it seemed that housing costs (for everyone) rose in step with military housing allowances. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/243 "2019-04-26T22:38:29Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’m not sure how you’d do this without drastically changing the effect vs what Warren is proposing. Most people fresh out of college hardly pay any federal income tax anyway. It would take years or decades for them to use enough tax credits to pay off $100k in loans. You could always make them refundable tax credits, as with the EITC. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/244 "2019-04-26T22:44:42Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I think an educated populace is a very good thing and very important to the health of our society. > > I know the GOP does not agree with this. “I love the poorly educated!” and all that. > > It’s ok to just own that your party does not want American citizens to be educated. > > [https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-believe-college-education-bad-america-donald-trump-media-fake-news-634474](https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-believe-college-education-bad-america-donald-trump-media-fake-news-634474) It’s also okay to acknowledge the objectively true, undebatable fact that the Republican Party needs to be eradicated (or annihilated, whatever it takes to make it not exist anymore), for the good of the [del]country[/del] [del]planet[/del] species. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/245 "2019-04-26T23:15:58Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > It’s also okay to acknowledge the objectively true, undebatable fact that the Republican Party needs to be eradicated (or annihilated, whatever it takes to make it not exist anymore), for the good of the [del]country[/del] [del]planet[/del] species. It’s long been unsurprising to see TDS in even the most unrelated threads. Why not debate the merits of the proposal or education in general? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/246 "2019-04-26T23:19:34Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Of course you could just print money and give everyone a check. No need to tie it into poor personal financial decisions. Why distort the market further and reward time and effort wasted on worthless degrees? > > I paid off my student loan because I only borrowed what I needed and deliberately chose a degree that had demand and earning potential. If octopus can get a decent paying engineering degree what’s stopping others? Nothing in particular. But I feel like I’m being invited to infer that, given a pool of candidates no less motivated and diligent than you proved to be, 100% of them can successfully navigate the path you navigated. 40% seems plausibly aspirational, IFF current financial roadblocks are eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/247 "2019-04-26T23:20:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s long been unsurprising to see TDS in even the most unrelated threads. Why not debate the merits of the proposal or education in general? I beg your pardon. O/T: > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > It’s also okay to acknowledge the objectively true, undebatable fact that the Republican Party needs to be eradicated (or annihilated, whatever it takes to make it not exist anymore), for the good of the [del]country[/del] [del]planet[/del] species. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/248 "2019-04-27T02:41:51Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Free college. Free healthcare. > > Where will they find all that money? Don’t be silly. Free things don’t cost money. That’s why they call it “free.” ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/249 "2019-04-27T03:32:58Z")
No, I do not want my kids or future grandkids burdened by high college debt. This is why my wife and I and the kids grandparents started a college fund for them when they were born. I will do the same for future grandkids. Its what families do. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/250 "2019-04-27T04:44:17Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Don’t be silly. Free things don’t cost money. That’s why they call it “free.” I truly cannot tell if you believe this or are being sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/251 "2019-04-27T04:51:07Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > It’s also okay to acknowledge the objectively true, undebatable fact that the Republican Party needs to be eradicated (or annihilated, whatever it takes to make it not exist anymore), for the good of the [del]country[/del] [del]planet[/del] species. That’s a cute opinion, but there’s nothing even remotely factual about it. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/252 "2019-04-27T04:57:43Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No, I do not want my kids or future grandkids burdened by high college debt. > > This is why my wife and I and the kids grandparents started a college fund for them when they were born. I will do the same for future grandkids. > > Its what families do. It’s what families do _when they have sufficient excess money to do so_. When you’re just making enough to get by, or even still struggling to pay off your own student loans, that’s a lot trickier to navigate. In a [2014 survey](https://www.federalreserve.gov/econresdata/2014-report-economic-well-being-us-households-201505.pdf) by the Federal Reserve, 47% of the respondents indicated they would be unable to cover a $400 emergency expense without borrowing money or selling something, including 14% who simply wouldn’t be able to cover it, period. A [2017 survey by CareerBuilder](http://press.careerbuilder.com/2017-08-24-Living-Paycheck-to-Paycheck-is-a-Way-of-Life-for-Majority-of-U-S-Workers-According-to-New-CareerBuilder-Survey) had more than half of the respondents (56%) admitting they saved less than $100/month; that’s retirement, their emergency fund, their kids’ education, and any other savings account. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/253 "2019-04-27T06:05:32Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > If you can actually show that higher education is in the diseconomies of scale region of the cost curve, hie thee to thine nearest high-impact journal with that discovery. Just be ready to address the existing literature on the topic. Ummm . . . I’m pretty sure you missed the entire conversation. Ultra said the program would be massively expensive and most students would leave the program. I pointed out that if most students left the program the cost would drop dramatically. You jumped in saying attendance numbers had nothing to do with cost. I showed you why that was stupid so now you’re talking about economies of scale? In case you were unaware economies of scale apply to per item cost not to total cost. For instance i have to buy a mold to make children’s toys. The mold costs $10k and the plastic for the toy costs $0.10. If I only make 1 toy they toy costs 10,000.01 if I make 10,000 toys they each cost $1.10 that is where economies of scale come into play but my total project cost to make 1 toy was $10,000.01 while to make the 10k toys it was $11,000. So I spent more money to make more toys. Why don’t you explain why you think large colleges don’t have smaller budgets then small colleges? Here I’ll start you off the total CU Boulder FY18 budget was $[1.8 billion](https://www.colorado.edu/today/2018/06/22/regents-approve-operating-budget-head-coach-contract-extension) while the Colorado School of Mines budget was [304 million](https://www.mines.edu/budget/budget-information/) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/254 "2019-04-27T12:31:07Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > In case you were unaware economies of scale apply to per item cost not to total cost. And reducing the number of students going to public school is going to raise the cost to educate each of those students. And if we’re “right back where we started” then we still have a loan program for everyone else _plus_ more expensive education for each public school student. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/255 "2019-04-27T14:02:34Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > 1. On your #2 post, some for profit colleges are terrible about this. I have a friend who spent about $80,000 going to Devry because they promised him a 6 figure job after graduation. I know another person who spent about $40,000 for a court reporter course and found out there were no jobs in that area. Even regular colleges back in the day would lie about employment opportunities or say things like “follow your dreams” to get students into worthless programs. This is why I like colleges like[Lake Area Tech who actually can show a. how many students graduated 6 months ago b. where they are working, and c. how much they are making.](https://www.lakeareatech.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/DT.pdf) Granted most colleges are way too big to allow this. Lake Area Tech is one of those for-profit colleges _required_ to show those statistics, at least until Devos gets her way. Incidentally, the agency that gives their accreditation ([Higher Learning Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Learning_Commission)) is under fire from the Office of the Inspector General for how they monitor for-profit colleges. > [@](#): > > In 2009, the Office of the Inspector General of the US Department of Education (OIG-ED) criticized the Higher Learning Commission’s oversight of for-profit colleges and recommended that the agency consider “limiting, suspending, or terminating the organization’s status.”[5] > In 2010, the OIG reaffirmed their recommendation that the department consider sanctions for the HLC. It also critically reviewed the accreditation status of American InterContinental University and The Art Institute of Colorado, two for-profit colleges.[6] > In 2015, the OIG-ED issued a critical audit on the review process the HLC used while considering colleges’ proposals for competency-based credentials.[7] ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/256 "2019-04-27T21:39:46Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Lake Area Tech is one of those for-profit colleges _required_ to show those statistics, at least until Devos gets her way. > > Incidentally, the agency that gives their accreditation ([Higher Learning Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Learning_Commission)) is under fire from the Office of the Inspector General for how they monitor for-profit colleges. Well maybe sort of but its under the [South Dakota state technical education commission.](https://www.sfgate.com/news/education/article/Tuition-hiked-5-an-hour-at-technical-schools-13726069.php) Incidentally they won the [Aspen prize for #1 2 year college in 2017](https://www.lakeareatech.edu/about-us/national-awards/) Also [Barak Obama go there to give the 2015 commencement address?](https://www.lakeareatech.edu/president-obama-to-give-commencement-address-at-lake-area-technical-institute/) the school was also profiled in the [Harvard Business Review.](https://hbr.org/2018/06/companies-can-address-talent-shortages-by-partnering-with-educators) Also covered in [Time magazine](http://time.com/3661629/obama-community-college-free/). so I dont think they are the greedy for profit school your thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/257 "2019-04-27T23:49:13Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well maybe sort of but its under the [South Dakota state technical education commission.](https://www.sfgate.com/news/education/article/Tuition-hiked-5-an-hour-at-technical-schools-13726069.php) Incidentally they won the [Aspen prize for #1 2 year college in 2017](https://www.lakeareatech.edu/about-us/national-awards/) > > Also [Barak Obama go there to give the 2015 commencement address?](https://www.lakeareatech.edu/president-obama-to-give-commencement-address-at-lake-area-technical-institute/) > > the school was also profiled in the [Harvard Business Review.](https://hbr.org/2018/06/companies-can-address-talent-shortages-by-partnering-with-educators) > > Also covered in [Time magazine](http://time.com/3661629/obama-community-college-free/). > > so I dont think they are the greedy for profit school your thinking. You seem to think **Irishman** is attacking Lake Area Tech. You might want to reread what you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/258 "2019-04-28T16:10:48Z")
**Urbanredneck** , I can see how you might have read my post as a criticism of Lake Area Tech’s quality. My point was touched upon previously in this thread by the discussion on oversight of for-profit colleges, and how Obama instituted the requirements that they maintain and publish the performance statistics that you are lauding Lake Area Tech for showing. It’s unlikely they would be doing so otherwise. And Besty Devos is busy trying to undo that policy. As an aside, I mentioned the accreditation issue. I’m not sure what the “South Dakota state technical education commission” is supposed to be. The school is managed by the South Dakota Department of Education [Board of Education](http://doe.sd.gov/board/), but that is not an accrediting institution. [Accrediting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_education_accreditation_in_the_United_States) is a separate oversight. Incidentally, that Wikipedia page states that the primary culprits for accrediting standard looseness with for-profit schools is via the national accrediting agencies, not the regional ones set up by the DoE. So that puts a better light on Lake Area Tech, being overseen by a regional accreditation agency. Of course, as cited, that agency has come under criticism for how it oversees for-profit schools, so while overall regional accreditation is seen as more stringent, there is still weakness in the for-profit area. Lake Area Tech seems like a quality technical school. However, the two biggest names in technical school from a few years ago ([ITT Tech](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITT_Technical_Institute) and [DeVry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeVry_University)) both had major issues with overstating their employment rates and student loan practices. Thus the scrutiny on for-profit tech schools. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/259 "2019-04-28T16:36:26Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Don’t be silly. Free things don’t cost money. That’s why they call it “free.” > [@Velocity](#): > > I truly cannot tell if you believe this or are being sarcastic. Just clowning around, there. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/260 "2019-04-29T11:42:28Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > **Urbanredneck** , I can see how you might have read my post as a criticism of Lake Area Tech’s quality. > > My point was touched upon previously in this thread by the discussion on oversight of for-profit colleges, and how Obama instituted the requirements that they maintain and publish the performance statistics that you are lauding Lake Area Tech for showing. It’s unlikely they would be doing so otherwise. And Besty Devos is busy trying to undo that policy. > > As an aside, I mentioned the accreditation issue. I’m not sure what the “South Dakota state technical education commission” is supposed to be. The school is managed by the South Dakota Department of Education [Board of Education](http://doe.sd.gov/board/), but that is not an accrediting institution. [Accrediting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_education_accreditation_in_the_United_States) is a separate oversight. > Incidentally, that Wikipedia page states that the primary culprits for accrediting standard looseness with for-profit schools is via the national accrediting agencies, not the regional ones set up by the DoE. So that puts a better light on Lake Area Tech, being overseen by a regional accreditation agency. Of course, as cited, that agency has come under criticism for how it oversees for-profit schools, so while overall regional accreditation is seen as more stringent, there is still weakness in the for-profit area. > > Lake Area Tech seems like a quality technical school. However, the two biggest names in technical school from a few years ago ([ITT Tech](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITT_Technical_Institute) and [DeVry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeVry_University)) both had major issues with overstating their employment rates and student loan practices. Thus the scrutiny on for-profit tech schools. Ok, I see your point now. Due to the fact that tech schools dont offer traditional coursework you see at the university level, accreditation is trickier. For example at Mitchel Tech, their HVAC program is accredited by somebody called the [Esco Group](https://www.escogroup.org/accreditation/default.aspx). Their culinary department by the [American Culinary Association.](https://www.acfchefs.org/ACF/HomePage.aspx?hkey=faa36a6a-410b-4d70-a77b-308c0d2589cb&WebsiteKey=b3353b7b-2497-4bb3-8dae-4c6ecac72f92)Here is a link to [their accreditation page.](https://www.mitchelltech.edu/about-mti/discover-mti/accreditation) Interestingly, Lake Area Tech, plus several others in South Dakota like [Southeast Area Tech, located in Sioux Falls](https://southeasttech.edu/)actually started out as traditional high school vo-tech programs. STI still is under the Sioux Falls School Board. A few years ago the state of South Dakota decided to push and promote their programs, making them full adult technical schools while still having high school students. It has worked out well for South Dakota. They get a talented workforce with skills in demand by employers in the state also like 70% of graduates stay in South Dakota. BTW, Any school like Devry which spends so much money on commercials and gives their recruiters bonus money should not be trusted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931.md?page=14)