# Warren Student Loan Forgiveness Plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2019, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931 "2019-04-23T12:44:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/301 "2019-05-05T20:46:18Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Since the subject is what students pay, yes that is what debt-free college for students is. You’re arguing that the students are not paying, so college costs less. **Urbanredneck** is arguing that the government is now paying the costs, so colleges will charge them more. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/302 "2019-05-05T21:55:29Z")
“Cost” and “price” are not the same thing. Every single other reader of this thread gets it, so no need to explain it to one who chooses not to. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/303 "2019-05-05T21:59:43Z")
On the “unfair” line of thinking. If I had any outstanding student loans, your taxes would go to me. That doesn’t seem like a good place to send them. Likewise, if I sent a kid to, say, UVA next year, we’re currently unlikely to receive any financial aid. But this plan would have you covering my family’s expenses. It just doesn’t seem like good prioritization of funds. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/304 "2019-05-05T23:24:31Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The plural of anecdote is not data. And that is why I did check first how people that already paid their bills support a plan like Warren, unless you can demonstrate that the survey avoids all people from the cadre you refer to, then what you pointed out are just anecdotes. The point that stands is that it is not just boomers that think that some form of loan forgiveness is needed. Whatever. _You_ are the one who packed your post full of _examples of boomers_. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/305 "2019-05-05T23:29:24Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Whatever. _You_ are the one who packed your post full of _examples of boomers_. Like if there should be a magical reason to ignore boomer’s opinions on this. Not logical at all. And again, since the survey I pointed out uses the internet, there are usually less boomers in there telling us that… yes, this is an idea that we should consider. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/306 "2019-05-05T23:44:17Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > You’re arguing that the students are not paying, so college costs less. **Urbanredneck** is arguing that the government is now paying the costs, so colleges will charge them more. > [@Ruken](#): > > “Cost” and “price” are not the same thing. Every single other reader of this thread gets it, so no need to explain it to one who chooses not to. So says the one that insisted that we are talking the same when we talk about purchasing power and how much people are getting paid nowadays. Nope, I get it too, it is really silly to press on as if I’m **only** talking to reduce costs for students, and that that should be dismissed just because you consider the government costs as if it was **the only** item being considered. And as usual in this thread: it is clear that you do ignore that I do think that means testing (that in part are already in the plan by giving a limit of how much should be forgiven) should be added to the plan. Meaning that well to do students will not have access to this. Now what you are dealing with is actually with the issue of making a plan like this sustainable, as noted there are several developed nations that manage to do this and they are not ending going up in flames by offering free college education or at a reduced price. > **[Here's what college costs in 28 countries around the world](https://www.businessinsider.com/cost-of-college-countries-around-the-world-2018-6)** > > College is the US is notoriously expensive and, as a result, millions are drowning in student debt. But other countries see higher education differently. Many don't charge tuition fees at public institutions, and others charge less than $1,000 per... ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/307 "2019-05-05T23:51:24Z")
Forgot to add: It may happen that private colleges charge more, in countries that offer free or reduced price college education, but there are ways for governments to intervene to prevent that from spiraling out of control. Now, private institutions will indeed try to charge more, but they will IMHO encounter what does happens when there are good public options (like with health care in civilized nations), trying to charge more does become unsustainable for private institutions when there is a good public option available. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/308 "2019-05-06T03:25:30Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Since the subject is what students pay, yes that is what debt-free college for students is. But in the end, someone has to pay the bill. and colleges will be free to charge whatever they want. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/309 "2019-05-06T03:29:21Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > People _should_ study the humanities. A university education should encourage exploration of subject matter that we might not be otherwise exposed to, and there’s a lot more to being educated than just studying math or computers. I would gladly support efforts to make college more affordable precisely so that more people could study these things. Again, thats what books and movies and trips to museums and such are for. But does one need to pay $1,000 for a 3 credit class in art history? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/310 "2019-05-06T04:18:01Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > But in the end, someone has to pay the bill. and colleges will be free to charge whatever they want. Please read post #307 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/311 "2019-05-06T09:38:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Like if there should be a magical reason to ignore boomer’s opinions on this. Not logical at all. And again, since the survey I pointed out uses the internet, there are usually less boomers in there telling us that… yes, this is an idea that we should consider. 😕 Gigo! You’re usually a smart guy. Review this subthread and you’ll see you’re thrashing wildly, defending an error and completely unresponsive to me. It started when _you_ posted (faulty) anecdotes and then lectured _me_ with “The plural of anecdote is not data.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/312 "2019-05-06T11:24:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Please read post #307 Which is about what private colleges will charge, which nobody was talking about. Without pricing pressure, and without rules to prevent it, Warren’s policy will result in public schools charging more. No, not to students, in case you try throwing that gem at us again. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/313 "2019-05-06T11:41:42Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 Gigo! You’re usually a smart guy. Review this subthread and you’ll see you’re thrashing wildly, defending an error and completely unresponsive to me. > > It started when _you_ posted (faulty) anecdotes and then lectured _me_ with “The plural of anecdote is not data.” 😃 Not seeing it there, again, what you press is an motional reason in an attempt to make those anecdotes to be dismissed. And the survey is there for a reason, to point at evidence that is not just boomers who see this as proper. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/314 "2019-05-06T11:44:35Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > So says the one that insisted that we are talking the same when we talk about purchasing power and how much people are getting paid nowadays. Real median personal income is up. Real, as in purchasing power. You want the link again? People today have more inflation-adjusted income than they used to. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, I get it too, it is really silly to press on as if I’m **only** talking to reduce costs for students Did you not just write “Since the subject is what students pay”? We can only go by what you write, not what you think you mean. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > it is clear that you do ignore that I do think that means testing (that in part are already in the plan by giving a limit of how much should be forgiven) should be added to the plan. Meaning that well to do students will not have access to this. Tuition, the subject that, according to you, we were discussing, is not means-tested under the current plan. So this isn’t terribly germane now. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/315 "2019-05-06T11:50:56Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Again, thats what books and movies and trips to museums and such are for. > > But does one need to pay $1,000 for a 3 credit class in art history? Nobody “needs” to pay for an organic chemistry lecture either. They have that book in the library. We’ve hired plenty of art history majors, but strangely never one with museum trips on their resume. No, not to do anything very art- or history-related. But that’s because most of us realize that college isn’t a jobs-training program. One generally doesn’t major in X just to become an X-ian or -ist. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/316 "2019-05-06T14:24:41Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Real median personal income is up. Real, as in purchasing power. You want the link again? People today have more inflation-adjusted income than they used to. Again: > **[Real U.S. Wages Are Essentially Back at 1974 Levels, Pew Reports | The Motley...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/economy/2018/08/14/salaries-real-us-wages-back-1974-levels-pew-report/37468497/)** > > Forget the chatter about tight labor markets, low unemployment, and vastly improved productivity. Purchasing power for most Americans has stagnated for decades. > [@](#): > > Even though the official unemployment rate has been hovering around record lows in recent years, wage growth has stayed stagnant, a new study from Pew Research reveals. In fact, the real average wage, which Pew defines as “the wage after accounting for inflation” has roughly the same purchasing power as it did 40 years ago. And while some workers have seen gains, most of the increases have gone to those who were already the highest-paid. And again, the point was about purchasing power, your point is indeed about personal income. Not the same, and your point does not counter the other, but it is not my problem if you want to insist that you think it was about the same thing. > [@Ruken](#): > > Did you not just write “Since the subject is what students pay”? We can only go by what you write, not what you think you mean. Yes, I do not say that what you say is not valid, only that as it was the case with the purchasing power, you want to act as if we do not talk about alternatives that therefore they do not exist. > [@Ruken](#): > > Tuition, the subject that, according to you, we were discussing, is not means-tested under the current plan. So this isn’t terribly germane now. And third strike too, the effort here is to claim that I was not talking about that, when I did. Means testing is something that will have to be added too so as to make it viable, as I mentioned many, many times already, I’m in favor of Warren’s plan with a tweak like means testing. (And it is really funny that on this you mentioned that we should go what what we write before, since I did write about means testing before, your rule here looks arbitrary). ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/317 "2019-05-06T20:33:31Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Nobody “needs” to pay for an organic chemistry lecture either. They have that book in the library. > > We’ve hired plenty of art history majors, but strangely never one with museum trips on their resume. No, not to do anything very art- or history-related. But that’s because most of us realize that college isn’t a jobs-training program. One generally doesn’t major in X just to become an X-ian or -ist. Please expand on this. What kind of jobs do you find art majors good at? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/318 "2019-05-06T23:16:49Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Nobody “needs” to pay for an organic chemistry lecture either. They have that book in the library. > > We’ve hired plenty of art history majors, but strangely never one with museum trips on their resume. No, not to do anything very art- or history-related. But that’s because most of us realize that college isn’t a jobs-training program. One generally doesn’t major in X just to become an X-ian or -ist. For many, college is nothing more than a signal that one is more literate and motivated than an average high schooler. If college becomes “free” and universal not only will it cost society more it will signal less. Which would put enormous pressure on many to get post grad or professional education as a discriminating signal for economic value. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/319 "2019-05-06T23:27:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > For many, college is nothing more than a signal that one is more literate and motivated than an average high schooler. If college becomes “free” and universal not only will it cost society more it will signal less. Which would put enormous pressure on many to get post grad or professional education as a discriminating signal for economic value. What a disaster for nations that then get to choose the best from a larger pool of talent. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/320 "2019-05-06T23:55:36Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What a disaster for nations that then get to choose the best from a larger pool of talent. Ah, everyone will be above average then. Lol. You do realize that fixing the elementary and high schools would have a more significant impact than making useless majors ‘free’? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931.md?page=17)