# Warren Student Loan Forgiveness Plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2019, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931 "2019-04-23T12:44:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/21 "2019-04-23T16:05:22Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > And those that are angry and opposed are sending the message that they don’t want our kids to have it any better than we did. If we got screwed by ridiculous student loans, then by god the grandkids should get screwed too!!! > > This is how all of your resentful replies to this idea sound to me. > > This is also why we can never actually improve things in this country because too many people would be bitter that _they_ didn’t get to take advantage. > > Reminds me of this: > > “The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.” —Nelson Henderson. Agree, although to take into consideration the false dilemma of trying to make this into a moral hazard, I would compromise a little and make the forgiveness to be mostly means tested. And also include the ones that were scammed by Trump like universities and colleges. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/22 "2019-04-23T16:07:28Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Oh right, you guys think college and education are bad things. I think kids racking up tens of thousands of dollars in debt for some silly-ass degree in whatever “studies” (with the accompanying dismal employment prospects) is the flavor of the week is a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/23 "2019-04-23T16:08:13Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Oh right, you guys think college and education are bad things. We need to build more colleges. Full stop. I think this plan Warren is proposing is bad for reasons already stated, but I think you’re making a classic error here in accusing people of not wanting to fix the underlying issues just because we don’t like this particular plan. My sorta alma mater, Ohio State, hasn’t drastically increased its in-state undergraduate enrollment in the 20 years since I left there. Instead, they’ve jacked up the prices to keep people out. If college is good, and I think it is, then Ohio should focus on building a second university to rival Ohio State so it can accept a lot more students at lower prices. But nobody is proposing this. Instead we’re trying to figure out ways to gift existing colleges more taxpayer dollars and not demanding that they accept more students. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/24 "2019-04-23T16:08:40Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’m good with changing the student loan system, and if we change it being able to pass those changes on to those who have current loans, but that’s a bit different than completely loan forgiveness. I’m not seeing why people SHOULD have their loans forgiven, to be honest. Are they saying they didn’t get value for their money? Why did they stay in the programs then? If they did get value for the money, then why should they get loan forgiveness? > > I do think there are some systemic issues with the student loan system as it is, and I think a focus on fixing those issues would be a good thing. This doesn’t seem to be that sort of ‘plan’ though. Well, there are economists and business groups that do see a benefit on loan forgiveness. [https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07) > [@](#): > > Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found. > > “That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth,” said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth. That the economical argument, as for the moral one: > [@](#): > > But there’s also a moral argument to be made in favor of wiping away borrowers’ student debt, Kelton said. Decades ago, public college was nearly or — in some cases — totally free and as momentum builds for other free college programs, it’s possible we could ultimately return to a similar system, she said. Those stuck with the debt now are there because of “an accident of history,” she argues. > > “There’s been a terrible policy error made in terms of the failure to continue to treat education as a public good,” she said. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/25 "2019-04-23T16:09:40Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Seems to be people are judging on a moral instead of an economic basis. Judging the morality of economic proposals is a mug’s game. > > Instead of loan forgiveness, what if it was presented as a middle class tax credit for those who still had student loans? Does that make any difference to people? And would you expect that credit to have a positive economic effect, despite the cost to the federal coffers? > > Still ‘unfair’, whatever that means, to people who have already paid theirs off, but in the same way I just missed out on a tax credit for replacing my A/C with a more energy efficient model. I’m not sure how you’d do this without drastically changing the effect vs what Warren is proposing. Most people fresh out of college hardly pay any federal income tax anyway. It would take years or decades for them to use enough tax credits to pay off $100k in loans. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/26 "2019-04-23T16:13:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think kids racking up tens of thousands of dollars in debt for some silly-ass degree in whatever “studies” (with the accompanying dismal employment prospects) is the flavor of the week is a bad thing. I think an educated populace is a very good thing and very important to the health of our society. I know the GOP does not agree with this. “I love the poorly educated!” and all that. It’s ok to just own that your party does not want American citizens to be educated. [https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-believe-college-education-bad-america-donald-trump-media-fake-news-634474](https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-believe-college-education-bad-america-donald-trump-media-fake-news-634474) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/27 "2019-04-23T16:15:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think kids racking up tens of thousands of dollars in debt for some silly-ass degree in whatever “studies” (with the accompanying dismal employment prospects) is the flavor of the week is a bad thing. Yes, but at the same time most of the ones in power are not bothering on overseeing those institutions that are offering those silly-ass degrees. > **[DeVos to Eliminate Rules Aimed at Abuses by For-Profit Colleges (Published 2018)](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/26/us/politics/betsy-devos-for-profit-colleges.html)** > > Betsy DeVos, the education secretary, in the latest move to boost for-profit colleges, plans to eliminate rules that forced them to show that their graduates were getting work. > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — Education Secretary Betsy DeVos plans to eliminate regulations that forced for-profit colleges to prove that they provide gainful employment to the students they enroll, in what would be the most drastic in a series of moves that she has made to free the for-profit sector from safeguards put in effect during the Obama era. > > The so-called gainful employment regulations put into force by the Obama administration cut off federally guaranteed student loans to colleges if their graduates did not earn enough money to pay them off. That sent many for-profit colleges and universities into an economic tailspin because so many of their alumni were failing to find decent jobs. > > The Obama regulations — years in the making and the subject of a bitter fight that pulled in heavy hitters from both parties who backed the for-profit schools — also required such schools to advertise whether or not they met federal standards for job placement in promotional materials and to prospective students. > > Now, a draft regulation, obtained by The New York Times, indicates that the Education Department plans to scuttle the regulations altogether, not simply modify them, as Ms. DeVos did Wednesday with new regulations that scaled back an Obama-era debt relief plan for student borrowers who felt duped by the unrealistic appeals of for-profit colleges. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/28 "2019-04-23T16:17:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think kids racking up tens of thousands of dollars in debt for some silly-ass degree in whatever “studies” (with the accompanying dismal employment prospects) is the flavor of the week is a bad thing. Yeah, all those kids with their high debt and their crazy degrees like _check notes_ education and law. > **[The college majors where people struggle with debt the most](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2016/02/02/the-college-majors-where-people-struggle-the-most-and-the-least-with-debt/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.dc4908575077)** > > The paycheck rules, even for people with high amounts of debt. “Area, ethnic, cultural, gender, and group studies” majors make up about 0.4% of college students: > **[Bachelor's degrees conferred by postsecondary institutions, by field of...](https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d17/tables/dt17_322.10.asp?current=yes)** > > The primary purpose of the Digest of Education Statistics is to provide a compilation of statistical information covering the broad field of American education from prekindergarten through graduate school. The Digest includes a selection of data from... ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/29 "2019-04-23T16:19:38Z")
Wow. Owned by your own Secretary of Education. **HD** do you even know what the administration you support is doing? Because they don’t seem to share your concerns regarding “silly-ass degrees”. Obama on the other hand tried to do something to help with that problem. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/30 "2019-04-23T16:19:53Z")
**Airbeck** , you are straw-manning in this thread. Saying that the GOP doesn’t like education because how shoddily the U.S. education model works is akin to war-hawks who say that Democrats who oppose $700 billion defense budgets “do not support our men and women in uniform.” ---
**Author:** ![slalexan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@slalexan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slalexan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/31 "2019-04-23T16:20:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think kids racking up tens of thousands of dollars in debt for some silly-ass degree in whatever “studies” (with the accompanying dismal employment prospects) is the flavor of the week is a bad thing. What about those of us who got “good” degrees but still ended up with lots and lots of debt? I got a degree in Chemical Engineering in 2011. I graduated with a significant amount of debt. (I got kind of screwed when I tried to get in state tuition in Indiana and was denied because I wasn’t legally emancipated from my parents who lived in Kansas at the time. Funnily enough, a few years ago, they moved back to Indiana.) I worked all through college and did my best to save but tuition for us out-of-state students rose every year. On top of that, my parents declared bankruptcy and weren’t able to cosign on my loans. My senior year, I ended up with some truly terrible private loans with double digit interest rates. Trust me, I took advantage of every opportunity to avoid borrowing more money. My hands were tied at that point. So, 8 years out of school, I still owe north of $80k on my loans, and was only just able to refinance my private student loans to a much more reasonable interest rate. I got stuck in a spiral where I couldn’t refinance my student loans because the banks felt that I couldn’t afford my student loans and, meanwhile, the principles weren’t going down because of the exorbitant interest rates that would go up every quarter. I admit that I signed up for them. I did sign my name on the dotted line. But, please, don’t tell me that this system isn’t exploitative. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/32 "2019-04-23T16:20:14Z")
She’s just pandering. It’s a way to buy votes. She can’t be so dumb that she actually believes it’s a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/33 "2019-04-23T16:22:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > **Airbeck** , you are straw-manning in this thread. Saying that the GOP doesn’t like education because how shoddily the U.S. education model works is akin to war-hawks who say that Democrats who oppose $700 billion defense budgets “do not support our men and women in uniform.” No that’s not true at all. Look at the link I posted. Republicans think that college is a bad thing for America. They said it not me. It’s the whole “colleges are all about liberal indoctrination” thing. So tell me then, what policies are the GOP fighting for that would actually improve education in the US? And I mean all education, not just private/charter schools. We need to judge our outcomes by all students. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/34 "2019-04-23T16:22:59Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > And those that are angry and opposed are sending the message that they don’t want our kids to have it any better than we did. If we got screwed by ridiculous student loans, then by god the grandkids should get screwed too!!! Not so much “kids” but “peers.” Someone who worked hard from, say, 2015 through 2020 to pay off loans would have endured considerable financial tightness, whereas someone who graduated in 2020 just entering the Warren presidency would not have had to repay any of their loan. That is not a parent-to-kid-or-grandkid age gap, that is an age gap of mere years. It would be a 28-year old having resentment against a 22-year old, who in many ways in a comparative peer. The resentment would be greater because of how close the age gap is. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/35 "2019-04-23T16:23:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > She’s just pandering. It’s a way to buy votes. She can’t be so dumb that she actually believes it’s a good idea. Please check Post #24 ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/36 "2019-04-23T16:25:46Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > She’s just pandering. It’s a way to buy votes. She can’t be so dumb that she actually believes it’s a good idea. She and Bernie are trying hard to separate themselves from the rest of the contender field. With good reason, too; at their respective ages (they’re both over 70,) it is likely their last realistic shot at the presidency. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/37 "2019-04-23T16:26:45Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, there are economists and business groups that do see a benefit on loan forgiveness. > > [Canceling $1.4 trillion in student debt could have major benefits for the economy - MarketWatch](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07) So a program that costs $125 billion a year, and boosts GDP by $86-108 billion, is a boon for the economy? Not to mention - > [@](#): > > The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers’ private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds. > [@Airbeck](#): > > Oh right, you guys think college and education are bad things. What a preposterous piece of nonsense. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/38 "2019-04-23T16:28:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Yes, but at the same time most of the ones in power are not bothering on overseeing those institutions that are offering those silly-ass degrees. > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/26/us/politics/betsy-devos-for-profit-colleges.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/26/us/politics/betsy-devos-for-profit-colleges.html) Just curious, where do you think you can obtain a degree in LGBT Studies? A) The University of Phoenix, one of those evil for-profit colleges ([hint](https://www.phoenix.edu/degrees/undergraduate.html)) or B) UC Berkeley, one of those noble and delightsome non-profit public colleges that are seeking to prepare youth to launch their life of success with low tuition and a practical degree that will help them find employment ([hint](http://guide.berkeley.edu/undergraduate/degree-programs/lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender-studies/)) Bonus question: How would you feel about applying the “cut off federally guaranteed student loans to colleges if their graduates did not earn enough money to pay them off” to public colleges and universities? Or is what’s good for the goose not good for the gander in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/39 "2019-04-23T16:29:28Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Not so much “kids” but “peers.” Someone who worked hard from, say, 2015 through 2020 to pay off loans would have endured considerable financial tightness, whereas someone who graduated in 2020 just entering the Warren presidency would not have had to repay any of their loan. That is not a parent-to-kid-or-grandkid age gap, that is an age gap of mere years. It would be a 28-year old having resentment against a 22-year old, who in many ways in a comparative peer. The resentment would be greater because of how close the age gap is. Well stop being so spiteful and self centered and think about how your kids and grandkids would benefit, rather than looking at your neighbor in an envious rage. It’s bad that so many people have gotten screwed in the student loan system. It would be worse to refuse to fix that because you demand that everyone after you must suffer exactly as you have!!! We are supposed to be forming a more perfect union, not trying to ensure that any suffering we’ve endured must continue in perpetuity so everyone after us will suffer equally. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/40 "2019-04-23T16:30:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Please check Post #24 Of course you could just print money and give everyone a check. No need to tie it into poor personal financial decisions. Why distort the market further and reward time and effort wasted on worthless degrees? I paid off my student loan because I only borrowed what I needed and deliberately chose a degree that had demand and earning potential. If octopus can get a decent paying engineering degree what’s stopping others? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931.md?page=3)