# Warren Student Loan Forgiveness Plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2019, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931 "2019-04-23T12:44:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/81 "2019-04-23T18:16:59Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The reason this is bad idea is not just that it is a waste of money and a subsidy to the upper middle class, but that it fundamentally misunderstands what college is. > > For about 5-10% of students college is about education and the acquiring of knowledge that will help them be more productive. For the rest of the students it is about certification of the fact that you are smart and conscientiousness and thus will be a better worker. The more people get a certification then the weaker the signal the certification sends. Before WW2 only a quarter of the population graduated high school so that was a good signal that you were smart and motivated. Now 80-90% of the population graduates high school so all it signals is that you are not the lowest in intelligence and motivation. Rates of college graduation are about what rates of high school graduation were and rates of advanced degrees are about what college graduation were. > > From an individual perspective it is worth it to be certified and graduate college because it sets you apart from other job seekers. From a societal standpoint all the money spent to certify who the top job seekers are is a waste. Senator Warren’s loan scheme would make everything worse, it would increase the cost of college while making the signal sent by college attendance. It would encourage people to spend less time in productive work and more time trying to get credentialed. > The result is not increased prosperity but credential inflation, more young people wasted a decade of their lives to get credentials. That’s true as well. Used to be a high school diploma meant something. Now it doesn’t even ensure basic literacy or any competence in math. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/82 "2019-04-23T18:21:35Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The reason this is bad idea is not just that it is a waste of money and a subsidy to the upper middle class, but that it fundamentally misunderstands what college is. > > For about 5-10% of students college is about education and the acquiring of knowledge that will help them be more productive. For the rest of the students it is about certification of the fact that you are smart and conscientiousness and thus will be a better worker. The more people get a certification then the weaker the signal the certification sends. Before WW2 only a quarter of the population graduated high school so that was a good signal that you were smart and motivated. Now 80-90% of the population graduates high school so all it signals is that you are not the lowest in intelligence and motivation. Rates of college graduation are about what rates of high school graduation were and rates of advanced degrees are about what college graduation were. > > From an individual perspective it is worth it to be certified and graduate college because it sets you apart from other job seekers. From a societal standpoint all the money spent to certify who the top job seekers are is a waste. Senator Warren’s loan scheme would make everything worse, it would increase the cost of college while making the signal sent by college attendance. It would encourage people to spend less time in productive work and more time trying to get credentialed. > The result is not increased prosperity but credential inflation, more young people wasted a decade of their lives to get credentials. Credentials like maybe a medical degree? Or law degree? Engineering? You do know that credentials can be very important in a lot of fields. Would you go to a doctor if the only thing on his wall was a GED certificate? Education is good. The more educated we are as a population the better for us. I don’t want to keep falling behind the rest of the world. How do we plan to compete in the global economy if we are hamstringing ourselves by reducing our education levels intentionally? If conservatives don’t want to be seen as anti-education, your arguments are doing a pretty poor job showing that. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/83 "2019-04-23T18:26:14Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s true as well. Used to be a high school diploma meant something. Now it doesn’t even ensure basic literacy or any competence in math. It used to be people had to teach themselves how to read and life expectancy was less than 40 years. Used to be != better. We don’t have to live how we used to anymore. We can be better. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/84 "2019-04-23T18:26:23Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > We need to build more colleges. Full stop. I think this plan Warren is proposing is bad for reasons already stated, but I think you’re making a classic error here in accusing people of not wanting to fix the underlying issues just because we don’t like this particular plan. > > My sorta alma mater, Ohio State, hasn’t drastically increased its in-state undergraduate enrollment in the 20 years since I left there. Instead, they’ve jacked up the prices to keep people out. If college is good, and I think it is, then Ohio should focus on building a second university to rival Ohio State so it can accept a lot more students at lower prices. But nobody is proposing this. Instead we’re trying to figure out ways to gift existing colleges more taxpayer dollars and not demanding that they accept more students. No, we do not need to build more colleges, full stop. Enrollment more or less peaked in 2010 and is expected to remain flat for another decade. This is largely a demographic phenomenon. Prices are not high due to demand exceeding supply. They are high because demand for college is relatively inelastic. Hell we have a poster in this thread who admitted to taking out tens of thousands of dollars in debt to get an out-of-state chemical engineering degree instead of opting for cheaper options. If people respond to rising prices by just accepting them and borrowing more, then there’s no pressure to stem the rise. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/85 "2019-04-23T18:28:13Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > It used to be people had to teach themselves how to read and life expectancy was less than 40 years. > > Used to be != better. > > We don’t have to live how we used to anymore. We can be better. Devaluing credentials and inflating prices is doing worse. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/86 "2019-04-23T18:31:23Z")
I disagree that more people being educated devalues being educated. If I have an MD, and my friend also gets an MD, does that devalue my MD? More people being educated is better for our society. Unless you think we need more uneducated people, for some reason? I mean Trump said he loves the uneducated, so seems like that may be the view of your side. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/87 "2019-04-23T18:37:20Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > No, we do not need to build more colleges, full stop. Enrollment more or less peaked in 2010 and is expected to remain flat for another decade. This is largely a demographic phenomenon. The high cost of college has nothing to do with it? 65% of the country wouldn’t get a 4 year degree if it were affordable? I’m skeptical but if you have some data I’d be interested. Demand is inelastic at certain colleges because the alternatives aren’t seen as equal. People without means are regularly told to do two years at a community college and then transfer to a more reputable state school, but that’s not seen as an equal path. Why should that even be necessary? The state school shouldn’t cost 10x as much as the community college in the first place, and it wouldn’t if there were more of them to go around. If students could choose between big state school X, Y, Z, D, Q, and R instead of big state schools X and Y and other, crappier options, they totally would. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/88 "2019-04-23T18:44:26Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I disagree that more people being educated devalues being educated. If I have an MD, and my friend also gets an MD, does that devalue my MD? > > More people being educated is better for our society. > > Unless you think we need more uneducated people, for some reason? I mean Trump said he loves the uneducated, so seems like that may be the view of your side. When standards are ignored or dumbed down it sure does devalue the credentials. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/89 "2019-04-23T18:47:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > When standards are ignored or dumbed down it sure does devalue the credentials. That is not responsive to what you quoted. I asked specific questions. Is it better for the US to have more educated people or more uneducated people? Better for the US that is, not better for the electoral prospects of the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/90 "2019-04-23T18:55:25Z")
I like how the rising tide that lifts all boats is great when it means millionaires get a tax cut, but not so great when smart kids get to go to college where they might learn how to make the millionaire’s factory more efficient. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/91 "2019-04-23T19:00:33Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > That is not responsive to what you quoted. I asked specific questions. > > Is it better for the US to have more educated people or more uneducated people? > > Better for the US that is, not better for the electoral prospects of the GOP. Useful education is obviously a good. But eliminating student loan debt is not necessarily linked to useful education. There is a lot of time and money wasted on useless or less than useless degrees. Further incentivizing foolishness is not good. It might be good politics but it’s not good for productivity. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/92 "2019-04-23T19:03:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Useful education is obviously a good. But eliminating student loan debt is not necessarily linked to useful education. There is a lot of time and money wasted on useless or less than useless degrees. Further incentivizing foolishness is not good. It might be good politics but it’s not good for productivity. Who decides what is useless education? You? The GOP? Knowledge is a good in and of itself. Who are you to try to take access to that away from anyone because you consider it useless? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/93 "2019-04-23T19:04:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The best thing we could do for future college students is to cease giving gobs of debt to so many people who barely understand it. I can’t believe I’m agreeing with you about something. In my opinion, were I god-emperor of the world (well, country), I’d do the following. 1. Make all state-run colleges free. Completely free. Don’t gotta even pay for textbooks free. (You know, like we already do with elementary and high school.) 2. Build more of them to help meet demand. 3. Start shutting down student loans. (Including private ones - regulation, baby! Socialism! Dogs and cats living together!) It doesn’t have to be cold turkey, but I’d start instituting caps on how large of loans can be issued, with the idea of making the most outrageous of tuitions basically unaffordable. Private colleges can lower their prices or shut down. (Free market pricing only works when people have to pay for things themselves.) 4. As the max student loan caps drop, forgive outstanding debt as needed such that no individual owes more than the new caps. It ain’t fair to those who already paid, but any effort to improve things is unfair to people who suffered through the old system. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t improve things. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/94 "2019-04-23T19:08:17Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Who decides what is useless education? You? The GOP? > > Knowledge is a good in and of itself. Who are you to try to take access to that away from anyone because you consider it useless? Depends…who is paying for it? If you are paying for it, then you get to decide. If I’m paying for it, then I get to decide. If we, collectively are paying for it well…then it gets really complicated deciding what is, or isn’t ‘useless’, doesn’t it? I mean, personally, I think that theological degrees are useless as is woo medicine and some other things along those lines. I also think a lot of the humanities type degrees are…well, not useless, but less than useful for a career, and part of this program is being sold on the presumption of economic benefit to society. But if you are going to talk about society as a whole paying for or paying off the debts for the education choices people made, then it is going to come up. Unless we just want to say that any education for anything is good, here’s some money. Which, I seriously doubt anyone would actually advocate if they really thought about it. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/95 "2019-04-23T19:14:49Z")
My position is that the greater the knowledge available to everyone, and the more knowledge acquired by everyone, the better for society and humanity. Ignorance is one of the main things holding us back as a species from reaching our potential. I don’t trust the government to decide what knowledge I’m allowed to access or acquire. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/96 "2019-04-23T19:18:22Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Who decides what is useless education? You? The GOP? > > Knowledge is a good in and of itself. Who are you to try to take access to that away from anyone because you consider it useless? I don’t decide. The market does. I didn’t get a degree in a subject that would have been of more interest to me. I got a degree in a field that has market value. And I’m not trying to take “access” away from anyone. If people can afford useless degrees I’m not going to stop them. But I will argue against society borrowing or printing money to pay for useless or even counterproductive degrees. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/97 "2019-04-23T19:19:33Z")
Do you think art is useless? Music? Because I wouldn’t want to live in a society without either. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/98 "2019-04-23T19:23:57Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Do you think art is useless? Music? No. But it’s foolish to spend 4 years of one’s life and 200k for a degree in art or music if there is no realistic return on investment. I’m all for expanding arts programs, PE, etc. in k-12 and establishing low cost vocational tertiary education. I’m not for programs that severely distort the cost of college such as guaranteed student loans nor am I for dumbing down standards for PC reasons. I’d even pay more taxes for rational education reform. But senator warren isn’t being rational. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/99 "2019-04-23T19:25:28Z")
Of all the things that aren’t blatantly ridiculous, student loan forgiveness is one of the worse things I can think of to spend our money on, ranking behind most reparations, which I am not even in favor of. It would be an additional several trillion over the long haul coming out of nowhere. Healthcare and even a UBI would be a better use of our tax money (I say healthcare because while actually a net saver, it would _look_ like it cost money because taxes would have to go up a little bit even if the country as a whole saves money.) With regards to the HBCU, I wonder if that money wouldn’t be better spend on underperforming high and primary schools, to make underprivileged children better prepared for college. That said we could use more subsidies for state and local colleges and trade schools. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/100 "2019-04-23T19:26:49Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > My position is that the greater the knowledge available to everyone, and the more knowledge acquired by everyone, the better for society and humanity. > > Ignorance is one of the main things holding us back as a species from reaching our potential. > > I don’t trust the government to decide what knowledge I’m allowed to access or acquire. If you have us, collectively pay for it, then you ARE trusting the government to decide…unless, again, we just basically go with anything anyone wants to study, here is some money. The thing is, I don’t agree that every subject anyone would want to study is a benefit to society. Personally, I think mainly the engineering, science and the tech related stuff are beneficial, but that’s just me. But I think there are things that most in this thread WOULD agree are bullshit that society shouldn’t pay for. If an individual wants to study that shit, well, it’s their dime. But who decides what is or isn’t beneficial, or what the limits are? You? Me? Our politicians? It’s an issue and one I think you and others are glossing over in these types of discussions. I don’t know if college should be ‘free’. That seems…wrong to me. I don’t know if the education would be as valued if it was a gift anyone could get anytime. By the same token, I agree with some of your point…an educated society is a better society. I think it should be, at best, a combination of our collective society chipping in some dough for part of an education (which would need to be defined wrt what we, collectively, want to pay for) and part of it should come from the person who wants that education…that way, everyone has some skin in the game, so to speak. The details are irrelevant at this point, but I don’t think that the US collectively taking on $1.4 trillion is something to take lightly, and, frankly, it doesn’t solve anything unless there are plans to rectify the core issues, as all it would do is give a loan now to folks who have already taken the classes…it won’t do shit to folks taking future classes. Saying we’d just pay for that too means we are talking about taking on half a trillion dollars or more additional spending every year, which doesn’t seem…optimal…either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931.md?page=6)