# Warren Student Loan Forgiveness Plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2019, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931 "2019-04-23T12:44:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/141 "2019-04-24T03:47:00Z")
Well, it’s good to see conservatives care about government spending and national debt again. I was getting nervous, seeing as how they seemed to enjoy skyrocketing the deficit the last couple years. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/142 "2019-04-24T04:15:14Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The reason this is bad idea is not just that it is a waste of money and a subsidy to the upper middle class, but that it fundamentally misunderstands what college is. > > For about 5-10% of students college is about education and the acquiring of knowledge that will help them be more productive. For the rest of the students it is about certification of the fact that you are smart and conscientiousness and thus will be a better worker. The more people get a certification then the weaker the signal the certification sends. Before WW2 only a quarter of the population graduated high school so that was a good signal that you were smart and motivated. Now 80-90% of the population graduates high school so all it signals is that you are not the lowest in intelligence and motivation. Rates of college graduation are about what rates of high school graduation were and rates of advanced degrees are about what college graduation were. > > From an individual perspective it is worth it to be certified and graduate college because it sets you apart from other job seekers. From a societal standpoint all the money spent to certify who the top job seekers are is a waste. Senator Warren’s loan scheme would make everything worse, it would increase the cost of college while making the signal sent by college attendance. It would encourage people to spend less time in productive work and more time trying to get credentialed. > The result is not increased prosperity but credential inflation, more young people wasted a decade of their lives to get credentials. Agreed. Implicit in these government programs like student loans is the idea that because (when they were enacted) people with college degrees got the best jobs and that the reason some people didn’t go to college was because they couldn’t afford it, if we just give them a way to afford it, then everyone will go to college and everyone (or nearly everyone) will have good professional jobs. The law of unintended consequences came into play and we are paying for it now. All it did was ratchet everything a step upward and inflate credentials, causing people to have crippling debt in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/143 "2019-04-24T09:06:20Z")
I found [this a rather good take](https://news.yahoo.com/stop-feigning-ignorance-why-millennials-155045415.html) on the plan and student loans in general today. ISTM it touches on both the positive assertions and negative comments posted in this thread thus far. The important thing is that the cost of college today is far out of proportion to what it was not so long ago. The current situation is simply unsustainable on a societal level. Do I have any gripes about all the money I’ve paid off for my student loans? No, and I’m almost finished paying that off. Granted, I did not need to use student loans for all of my college education: I got MGIB, attended community college, and finally graduated from a state university. I also did take a number of courses while I was overseas both before and during military service. One could say that the majority of my education was paid for with other people’s money, some of which I have spent the last fifteen years repaying. Yet, I still have no gripe if Senator Warren’s plan is enacted. I got an education, I got employment, and others deserve the same opportunity. As I said, the current system is unsustainable and, since it takes a double-miracle practically to have student loans discharged in bankruptcy, it will become even more unsustainable in the near future. This is not reparations. It’s simply a move to make a college education what it purports to be. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/144 "2019-04-24T11:10:45Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > A lot of thinking… for very little counter arguments or cites. Anyone who needs a cite for basic-ass government data probably shouldn’t be participating in the conversation. But I’ll play. Which point do you disagree with? The pay vs wage point is covered in your Pew article – real pay has increased faster than real wages. That’s from your own link. Are you going to embarrass yourself by denying that individuals earn more money over time? That boomers are being replaced? Or are you going to claim that you’d rather live in 19\_\_ on $X vs the CPI-adjusted amount today? Do tell, but maybe try “a lot of thinking” while you work it out. We’ve been over all these topics before, so I’m ready. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/145 "2019-04-24T11:15:17Z")
People keep making the moral hazard argument, but that shipped has already sailed with the bail-out of GM and big banks. I say it’s now time for some “little guys” to get some help. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/146 "2019-04-24T11:25:15Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Anyone who needs a cite for basic-ass government data probably shouldn’t be participating in the conversation. But I’ll play. Which point do you disagree with? The pay vs wage point is covered in your Pew article – real pay has increased faster than real wages. That’s from your own link. Are you going to embarrass yourself by denying that individuals earn more money over time? That boomers are being replaced? Or are you going to claim that you’d rather live in 19\_\_ on $X vs the CPI-adjusted amount today? Do tell, but maybe try “a lot of thinking” while you work it out. We’ve been over all these topics before, so I’m ready. Ready to strawman like many others. In this case the point was purchasing power, of course that does not fit the conservative narrative so talking about an item that was already acknowledged like if that would counter it is reached for. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/147 "2019-04-24T12:59:48Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Yeah, most of them are Asian. Shocker. Asian doesn’t mean foreign, shocker. They publish the number of Asian undergrads and the number of them who are out-of-state. Most are Ohio residents for enrollment purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/148 "2019-04-24T13:03:18Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Ready to strawman like many others. In this case the point was purchasing power, of course that does not fit the conservative narrative so talking about an item that was already acknowledged like if that would counter it is reached for. The Trumpist narrative is one of doom and gloom and stagnation for the average Joe. My points counter that narrative. If you wish to challenge one of my points, let’s hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/149 "2019-04-24T13:30:45Z")
Re: the tuition side of the OP, I’m not necessarily opposed to increased or total tuition support, but it would have to be tied to a mechanism that controls cost and does not reduce quality. I don’t think this is impossible but I’m not clever enough to come up with a plan that works in my head. I’m hoping some of you have some ideas. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/150 "2019-04-24T13:40:54Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > The Trumpist narrative is one of doom and gloom and stagnation for the average Joe. My points counter that narrative. If you wish to challenge one of my points, let’s hear it. I already did challenge that, and it seems that it is peculiar to claim that Trump’s narrative is of gloom when he himself talks about minorities and the poor doing better under him. Again, not challenging your point, the point that I and the other poster made stands, per Pew, the purchasing power of most Americans has stalled. “After adjusting for inflation, however, today’s average hourly wage has just about the same purchasing power it did in 1978” ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/151 "2019-04-24T13:41:35Z")
Why don’t state education boards just lower tuition fees with the wave of a pen? Seems like they have that power. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/152 "2019-04-24T13:45:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s the way it used to work. Since ObamaCare, the federal government is loaning the money themselves. Banks aren’t involved in the process really at all anymore (which came as a bit of a [surprise to Maxine Waters too](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORRAqBK-RNs), I think, so don’t feel bad) Huh… my loans were Stafford loans, which were by a private lender, but since they’re backed by the government, had a lower interest rate than comparable entirely private loans. I didn’t realize the government is directly loaning money now. What’s the advantage of doing that exactly? Seems like they picked up all the overhead and trouble, without actually making any money on the deal. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/153 "2019-04-24T13:49:54Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Why don’t state education boards just lower tuition fees with the wave of a pen? Seems like they have that power. Because monetary input must match monetary output. Unless you want the schools to borrow money, that wave of a pen would need to include concomitant cost reductions or state funding increases. Which are decisions they could make. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/154 "2019-04-24T13:53:12Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Huh… my loans were Stafford loans, which were by a private lender, but since they’re backed by the government, had a lower interest rate than comparable entirely private loans. > > I didn’t realize the government is directly loaning money now. What’s the advantage of doing that exactly? Seems like they picked up all the overhead and trouble, without actually making any money on the deal. The government accountants figured it would save them a fair bit of money. That’s why they did it: they were looking for ways to offset the cost of Obamacare and figured this would help some. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/155 "2019-04-24T14:03:46Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I found [this a rather good take](https://news.yahoo.com/stop-feigning-ignorance-why-millennials-155045415.html) on the plan and student loans in general today. ISTM it touches on both the positive assertions and negative comments posted in this thread thus far. > > The important thing is that the cost of college today is far out of proportion to what it was not so long ago. The current situation is simply unsustainable on a societal level. Do I have any gripes about all the money I’ve paid off for my student loans? No, and I’m almost finished paying that off. Granted, I did not need to use student loans for all of my college education: I got MGIB, attended community college, and finally graduated from a state university. I also did take a number of courses while I was overseas both before and during military service. One could say that the majority of my education was paid for with other people’s money, some of which I have spent the last fifteen years repaying. Yet, I still have no gripe if Senator Warren’s plan is enacted. > > I got an education, I got employment, and others deserve the same opportunity. As I said, the current system is unsustainable and, since it takes a double-miracle practically to have student loans discharged in bankruptcy, it will become even more unsustainable in the near future. This is not reparations. It’s simply a move to make a college education what it purports to be. As you noted that article is a good one: > [@](#): > > But the biggest impact of student loans may be on those who decide not to apply for them at all. In contrast to the over-educated stereotype, most young people did not go to college. In a survey last year, 70 percent of millennials said finances played a role in their decision about whether and where to attend university. In the middle of an economic recovery that so far has delivered most of its benefits to the college-educated, erecting a financial wall around higher education could leave millions of Americans behind. > > So however you feel about the specifics of Warren’s plan, it’s important to acknowledge the reality that young people face. There’s little evidence to suggest that millennials differ from previous generations in moral values or work ethic. There is abundant evidence, however, that they inherited vastly different economic and educational conditions than their parents. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/156 "2019-04-24T14:14:30Z")
I wonder what the effect would be on athletic scholarships? Only a few people make it to be a professional so the big reason parents shell out the big bucks is for a scholarship to pay for college. But what if that need wasnt there? Why even work to play on a college team? Just for the glory of saying you played for State? Maybe. In some sports. But for most athletes the time commitment that they put in right now wouldnt be worth it without the fear of being cut from the team and losing your scholarship. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/157 "2019-04-24T14:16:17Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Why don’t state education boards just lower tuition fees with the wave of a pen? Seems like they have that power. Well actually right now the states subsidize colleges but if the federal government will now pay the tab, why should the states give the universities any money? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/158 "2019-04-24T14:17:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I already did challenge that, and it seems that it is peculiar to claim that Trump’s narrative is of gloom when he himself talks about minorities and the poor doing better under him. > > Again, not challenging your point, the point that I and the other poster made stands, per Pew, the purchasing power of most Americans has stalled. “After adjusting for inflation, however, today’s average hourly wage has just about the same purchasing power it did in 1978” Is Pew using CPI-U, CPI-U-X1, CPI-U-RS or PCE (or, are they using R.O.U.S. … this last one being a trick question ;))? Since it looks to me, skimming the article, that it’s from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, I’d guess it’s one of the former, probably CPI-U-X1. If so, then you might want to dig into some of the objections to using those stats to draw the conclusions they are drawing. If they are using PCE then…never mind. If they are using R.O.U.S. then my suggestion would be to run, very fast… ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/159 "2019-04-24T14:18:14Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Again, not challenging your point, the point that I and the other poster made stands, per Pew, the purchasing power of most Americans has stalled. “After adjusting for inflation, however, today’s average hourly wage has just about the same purchasing power it did in 1978” “The average middle class person has virtually stagnant pay over the last several decades” and “today’s average hourly wage has just about the same purchasing power it did in 1978” do not have the same meaning. **UCBearcats** may have meant one thing while typing something else, but we can only go by what was actually written. And the average person gets paid more over time – see any BLS CPS earning-by-age table. The average wage is masked by entrants and exits from the job market: [The Good News on Wage Growth - San Francisco Fed](https://www.frbsf.org/our-district/about/sf-fed-blog/wage-growth-good-news/) That is, grandma retires, dad gets a raise, junior gets her first job. That decreases the average wage even though nobody is suffering. We have 10k boomers hitting 65 every day, so I expect this demographic masking to continue. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931/160 "2019-04-24T14:32:54Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > “The average middle class person has virtually stagnant pay over the last several decades” and “today’s average hourly wage has just about the same purchasing power it did in 1978” do not have the same meaning. **UCBearcats** may have meant one thing while typing something else, but we can only go by what was actually written. And the average person gets paid more over time – see any BLS CPS earning-by-age table. The average wage is masked by entrants and exits from the job market: [The Good News on Wage Growth - San Francisco Fed](https://www.frbsf.org/our-district/about/sf-fed-blog/wage-growth-good-news/) > That is, grandma retires, dad gets a raise, junior gets her first job. That decreases the average wage even though nobody is suffering. We have 10k boomers hitting 65 every day, so I expect this demographic masking to continue. Is this mike on? Taps… Again, **not countering that** , the point was about purchasing power, your article does report on the item I’m not criticizing (in reality that growth is good, but needs improvement; again, because of the lesser purchasing power) but it does not do any comparison with past purchasing power. > **[6 Reasons That Pay Has Lagged Behind U.S. Job Growth (Published 2018)](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/02/01/business/economy/wages-salaries-job-market.html)** > > Average hourly earnings were 2.9 percent higher in January than a year earlier, a hopeful sign that wages might be gaining traction in a tight labor market. Their stubborn failure to do so is one of the mysteries of a recovery now in its ninth year. > [@](#): > > The federal minimum wage, currently $7.25 an hour, has not increased since 2009, and its purchasing power has never returned on a sustained basis to what it delivered in the 1960s and ’70s. > > In response, some state and local governments have passed laws raising minimum wages to as high as $15 an hour, arguing it is the best way to ensure that low-wage workers who otherwise have little leverage are able to earn a living wage and share in the country’s economic growth. That movement has produced a backlash in Republican-controlled statehouses, where lawmakers have tried to pre-empt localities from enacting their own minimum wages. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warren-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/832931.md?page=9)