Warren Student Loan Forgiveness Plan

[asahi]

What about people who have already paid their loans? A lot of people could have a lot more in net wealth if their loans had been subsidized, so what about those who actually played by the rules and paid off their debts? See, this is the kind of trap that the far left of the party is potentially walking into. Where do we draw the lines when it comes to fairness?

I agree with making college more affordable, but I don’t think free college or loan forgiveness is the way to go. My preference would be to start by restoring bankruptcy protection for people who default on their loans. I think we could expand on some of the loan forgiveness plans that already exist for people who do public service jobs. We could also offer more scholarships for low-income students.

[septimus]

@spifflog

… each President since Kennedy (and to Roosevelt depending on how you want to count it) had increased the debt, both liberal and conservative…

Let me fight that ignorance for you.

[Ruken]

@asahi

What about people who have already paid their loans? A lot of people could have a lot more in net wealth if their loans had been subsidized, so what about those who actually played by the rules and paid off their debts? See, this is the kind of trap that the far left of the party is potentially walking into. Where do we draw the lines when it comes to fairness?

The above doesn’t offer anything that hasn’t been said already, but I’ll quote it because it’s the last post to mention it. I’ve already expressed my skepticism of the proposal, but I don’t find this fairness issue to be very compelling from a policy standpoint. It may still be compelling from a politics standpoint (if enough people get mad, you may end up with nothing.) But good-to-have social programs that arise from nothing may not be fair to those who would have benefited had they been enacted earlier. I don’t think that prevents a program from being, ultimately, good policy.

[asahi]

@Ruken

The above doesn’t offer anything that hasn’t been said already, but I’ll quote it because it’s the last post to mention it. I’ve already expressed my skepticism of the proposal, but I don’t find this fairness issue to be very compelling from a policy standpoint. It may still be compelling from a politics standpoint (if enough people get mad, you may end up with nothing.) But good-to-have social programs that arise from nothing may not be fair to those who would have benefited had they been enacted earlier. I don’t think that prevents a program from being, ultimately, good policy.

I don’t typically use fairness as a reason to reject an economic policy, but in this case, I use it because I that the affordability of college is an issue for people who have already paid down a heft chunk (or all) of their debt already. They could have put that money toward a house or toward their retirement.

Principle aside, if people want to better themselves, that’s fine, but that’s a personal choice, IMO, and not necessarily something we should just automatically subsidize for everyone. Moreover, I’ve seen no evidence that people entering college these days are substantially transformed in ways they couldn’t have been otherwise through apprenticeships and their own intellectual curiosity. College doesn’t do a particularly great job of preparing individuals for the workforce - internships through college can, but not a college curriculum itself.

[GIGObuster]

Those that speak about unfairness are talking a lot on behalf of many that do not see a problem.

57% of Americans who've already paid off their student loans support...

57% of Americans who’ve already paid off their student loans support Elizabeth Warren’s plan to cancel 42 million Americans’ college debt.

I paid off all my student loans. I still support student loan forgiveness.

I paid off all my student loans. I still support student loan forgiveness.
Boomers like me who paid off all of our student loans need to give millennials a break.

I paid off my student loans in full without assistance. Yet when editorialists decry presidential hopeful Elizabeth Warren’s student debt forgiveness plan as “unfair” or a “slap in the face” to those who already paid off their loans, they’re certainly not speaking for me.

It’s the kind of argument designed to tug at our most selfish impulses while ignoring the economic and political transformations that have left a generation of college graduates struggling under an unprecedented mountain of student debt.

I graduated college in 1985 with $18,000 in student loans (about $42,500 in 2019 dollars), and then diligently paid them off over the next 10 years. As a father, I saved enough for my daughter’s education to assure that she could graduate college 100 percent debt-free. I’m not rich. I didn’t always make the best financial choices. But I worked hard, played by the rules, and made good on my debts. I could be the poster child for those claiming student loan forgiveness is “unfair.”

But you know what’s really unfair? The huge advantage I enjoyed graduating into the 1985 job market.

Whenever an old white guy like me reminds you that “I worked my way through college,” remind them that in the 1981-1982 academic year, the average in-state tuition and fees at a four-year public college or university was just $909 … back when the federal minimum wage was $3.35 an hour. That means I could have paid for my entire freshman year tuition and fees with less than seven weeks of full-time minimum-wage work at just about any shitty summer job. But over the past four decades, average public university tuition and fees have increased more than 11-fold, to $10,230 a year, while the federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour has barely doubled.

Do the math: Today, the only way to work your way through college on the typical summer job would be to extend the summer break from June through February.

This isn’t the economy we boomers grew up in. Tuition is expensive, wages are stagnant, and housing prices are so outrageous that the only way my daughter will likely ever own a house in Seattle like the one she grew up in is if I die in it. And if my child deserves a debt-free college education, doesn’t every child?

So, yes, as a late-wave boomer with absolutely nothing to gain from Warren’s plan, I enthusiastically support both student debt forgiveness and debt-free college. Not just because it would be damn good for the economy by giving a whole generation saddled by debt more freedom to build up savings, buy homes, and contribute to the economy. But because I believe in the golden rule: Give unto future generations the same opportunities and privileges my generation enjoyed.

BTW, it is clear that Warren’s plan will not cancel all debt, just about 50,000 tops per individual. As mentioned, adding a bit more means testing and I would agree 100% with Warren.

[steronz]

@GIGObuster

Those that speak about unfairness are talking a lot on behalf of many that do not see a problem.

I’ve not seen any articles written by people who couldn’t afford college who would be OK with their now college educated peers getting a huge government handout.

[asahi]

@GIGObuster

Those that speak about unfairness are talking a lot on behalf of many that do not see a problem.

Warren's Student-Loan Cancellation Plan Popular Among Those Without Debt
Student debt cancellation: Millennials deserve a break from boomers like me - Vox

Yeah, go ahead and interview boomers who borrowed less money, with lower borrowing costs, and have had plenty of time to pay it off and build up a retirement. I wouldn’t have a problem with some sort of scheme that allows people to shave off a portion of their remaining debt, but they agreed to borrow the money and they should pay it off unless there’s a really compelling reason not to, like falling ill and being unable to work. That’s how lending works.

All that said, I absolutely believe that student debt should be debt that students can discharge if they enter into bankruptcy proceedings. And I’m certainly open to finding ways to give former students more flexibility if they’re in financial distress. This would also be an appropriate time to reconsider the role that private financial services companies have in servicing this debt.

@GIGObuster

BTW, it is clear that Warren’s plan will not cancel all debt, just about 50,000 tops per individual. As mentioned, adding a bit more means testing and I would agree 100% with Warren.

That sounds perhaps a little more reasonable, but the hard left of the Democratic party seems to be competing for attention to see who can out-socialist whom. I sincerely hope this isn’t what comes out of the primaries because it’s just not going to work.

[septimus]

@GIGObuster

Those that speak about unfairness are talking a lot on behalf of many that do not see a problem.

Your quotes are mostly from boomers who paid off their student debt decades ago. These are certainly not the cadre I referred to as likely to feel unfairly treated.

[GIGObuster]

@steronz

I’ve not seen any articles written by people who couldn’t afford college who would be OK with their now college educated peers getting a huge government handout.

And that is just, as the boomer said:
“It’s the kind of argument designed to tug at our most selfish impulses while ignoring the economic and political transformations that have left a generation of college graduates struggling under an unprecedented mountain of student debt.”

[steronz]

But there’s a generation of people struggling under all kinds of economic hardships. Wages are stagnant, home ownership is out of reach for a whole swath of the population, black people still haven’t financially recovered from slavery, etc. Nobody’s saying that college debt isn’t a problem, we’re saying, What makes recent college graduates the best recipients of a huge chunk of taxpayer dollars?

You can imagine explaining this to someone from rural Alabama, who’s known nothing but generational poverty since their ancestors were liberated by the 13th amendment. You’ll say, some Americans are going to win a small lotteries worth of government money, but then just as they start to get hope in their eyes you have to explain that no, you don’t mean people like them, you mean people who have recently gotten a very expensive education.

Pointing out the inherent unfairness in this is hardly an inappropriate response.

[GIGObuster]

@septimus

Your quotes are mostly from boomers who paid off their student debt decades ago. These are certainly not the cadre I referred to as likely to feel unfairly treated.

The plural of anecdote is not data. And that is why I did check first how people that already paid their bills support a plan like Warren, unless you can demonstrate that the survey avoids all people from the cadre you refer to, then what you pointed out are just anecdotes. The point that stands is that it is not just boomers that think that some form of loan forgiveness is needed.

[Urbanredneck]

They knew damn well what they were doing when they took out those loans. Thats why so many of them did everything they could to NOT take them out. For example, they worked hard for scholarships. They went to community colleges or state schools instead of more expensive ones. They worked part time jobs in college. Plus as I’ve said above, the average debt is about $32,000. If they keep the pauper student lifestyle, thats an amount easily paid off in 2 years or so.

Finally debt forgiveness will do nothing about the staggering cost of college in the first place. If they start doing debt forgiveness that amount will certainly go up. Easily over the $50,000 amount Warrens plan gets rid of.

[Urbanredneck]

@GIGObuster

And that is just, as the boomer said:
“It’s the kind of argument designed to tug at our most selfish impulses while ignoring the economic and political transformations that have left a generation of college graduates struggling under an unprecedented mountain of student debt.”

“Unprecedented”? I dont know when college was totally free. Its always been a struggle. They need to do more to look at why it costs so damn much.

[GIGObuster]

@Urbanredneck

They knew damn well what they were doing when they took out those loans. Thats why so many of them did everything they could to NOT take them out. For example, they worked hard for scholarships. They went to community colleges or state schools instead of more expensive ones. They worked part time jobs in college. Plus as I’ve said above, the average debt is about $32,000. If they keep the pauper student lifestyle, thats an amount easily paid off in 2 years or so.

That amount is getting higher. And harder to pay.

The inescapable weight of my $100,000 student debt

@Urbanredneck

Finally debt forgiveness will do nothing about the staggering cost of college in the first place. If they start doing debt forgiveness that amount will certainly go up. Easily over the $50,000 amount Warrens plan gets rid of.

Now that is an ignorant bit that can not be ignored.

As the subject is Warren’s plans, they do include a part about college costs.

Elizabeth Warren has the biggest free college plan yet

[Sam_Stone]

So, if college is free, what’s to stop colleges from simply doubling tuition? Or offering more watered-down useless subjects to capture the rent from the larger population of students who will go to ‘free’ college but can’t handle the curriculum in fields that would land them good jobs? What would stop them from inventing reasons to bloat administration even more?

The only answer to that would be price controls on college admission, or wage controls on staff. Which would be a terrible idea.

A better ‘fix’ to the student loan crisis would be to make colleges have some skin in the game. If they were on the hook for a percentage of student loan money that defaults, they’d be a lot more careful about their finances, tuition, and which programs they offer.

Ideally, student loans should not exist at all. They have caused tuition inflation which basically makes student loans mandatory for people who are not wealthy, and they have encouraged the growth of useless faculties offering useless degrees that will not pay enough for the student to comfortably pay back the loans.

Better answers would involve co-op education programs, apprenticeships, more of a focus on 2-year colleges as transfer programs into 4-year universities, and online education.

Also, cut all funding and tax breaks to schools sitting on massive endowments. Harvard’s 2018 endowment is 38 billion dollars.

If we are going to have student loans, they should be targeted at skills are in short supply. You want to be a doctor or an engineer? You’ll be making lots of money one day, so sure, we’ll give you a student loan. You want to go to college to ‘find yourself’ and take a bunch of liberal arts programs? Find a way to pay for it yourself. Or go to a two year college and learn somethiung useful, then indulge your desire for other learning online, at night school, or with a sabbatical.

No one owes you four years of partying while taking a light schedule of watered down ‘breadth’ courses.

[asahi]

@GIGObuster

And that is just, as the boomer said:
“It’s the kind of argument designed to tug at our most selfish impulses while ignoring the economic and political transformations that have left a generation of college graduates struggling under an unprecedented mountain of student debt.”

I don’t disagree that an argument over whether it is fair or not doesn’t necessarily rebut the economic merits that such a proposal might have – it’s admittedly somewhat tangential, although it becomes an economic argument when we start talking about moral hazard. What’s the incentive for colleges to maybe take a look at reducing their administrative and construction costs? Moreover, who’s going to pay for it all?

[Urbanredneck]

@Sam_Stone

If we are going to have student loans, they should be targeted at skills are in short supply. You want to be a doctor or an engineer? You’ll be making lots of money one day, so sure, we’ll give you a student loan. You want to go to college to ‘find yourself’ and take a bunch of liberal arts programs? Find a way to pay for it yourself. Or go to a two year college and learn somethiung useful, then indulge your desire for other learning online, at night school, or with a sabbatical.

This is exactly what “Build Dakota” scholarships do in South Dakota. Target fields in high demand in the state. Fields like Engineering, energy, and healthcare.

Now if a person WANTS to study philosophy, art, music, or gender studies - thats what books from a library are for.

[Urbanredneck]

@GIGObuster

Now that is an ignorant bit that can not be ignored.

As the subject is Warren’s plans, they do include a part about college costs.

Debt-free college: Elizabeth Warren has the biggest free college plan yet - Vox

I didnt read anything in that article about reducing what colleges charge.

[GIGObuster]

@Urbanredneck

I didnt read anything in that article about reducing what colleges charge.

Since the subject is what students pay, yes that is what debt-free college for students is.

[asahi]

@Urbanredneck

This is exactly what “Build Dakota” scholarships do in South Dakota. Target fields in high demand in the state. Fields like Engineering, energy, and healthcare.

Now if a person WANTS to study philosophy, art, music, or gender studies - thats what books from a library are for.

People should study the humanities. A university education should encourage exploration of subject matter that we might not be otherwise exposed to, and there’s a lot more to being educated than just studying math or computers. I would gladly support efforts to make college more affordable precisely so that more people could study these things.

But individuals will probably value their education more if they have to pay for at least some of it themselves.