Warren Student Loan Forgiveness Plan

Of course that is not what I said, so it is also a fallacy.

Do you realize that that is like saying that ‘unlike other developed nations, we can not walk and chew gum at the same time’?

Those 5 anecdotes are not convincing. And I don’t know if we can actually do contingent based programs here. We couldn’t even keep the enforced mandate of the ACA due to political realties.

At some point free education has diminishing returns. With politics interfering with proper elementary and secondary education I have no desire to see a further devaluation of tertiary education.

It seems to me that various other threads lament the fact that a high school diploma isn’t worth as much as it used to be, and a 4-year degree is becoming more and more required. Won’t the same thing happen if 4-year degrees became the norm - people who don’t have advanced degrees will become marginalized the way that high school graduates are now?

Or, you have the same pool of talent, but now it’s really hard to figure who has it because everyone has the same piece of worthless paper.

Because the other thing guaranteed to happen with ‘free’ education is that the schools will want to capture all those new rents, and so they will water down programs, spend new money on fancy facilities and anything else they have to do to get on that gravy train.

You can already see that in the Ivy Leagues, which have been raising tuition while watering down their curriculums, inflating grades, and building fancy residences.

When peopple pay for school with their own money, or parents pay for their children’s school, they want value for what they are spending. On the other hand, if you’re on a four year bender because someone gave you money to do it for free, you really don’t need to care much.

Free education pushes the payments onto a third party who has no skin in the game (the government). This is similar to putting insurers between patients and doctors - cost control goes out the window, requiring the insurers to respond by requiring paperwork justification for everything.

Imagine if everyone had a ‘right’ to free auto repairs, and the government paid for it. Every time you went into an auto shop they’d find reasons to do thousands of dollars of repairs. And why wouldn’t they? You don’t care - the government’s paying for it. And your car gets some new parts. But then the costs go through the roof, and suddenly the government is forced to generate regulations to keep it under control. And those regulations will be no substitute for the judgment of the public, so long as their incentives push them to balance cost vs benefit.

Take away the requirement to pay for college, and you remove the incentive of the colleges to control costs, and the incentives of students and parents to find the best value for the money. That would be a disaster.

As noted already, it sounds a lot like the “disaster” we should expect any day now for countries that already do this. Seems that we will have to wait as much as the countries that also have healthcare access for all. :slight_smile:

If you read the above they have problems with it like in Denmark where students one can become a “forever student” and students pursue degrees that society doesnt really need but its what they have a “passion” for.

One thing the article doesnt mention is many countries also have tests one must take before being allowed to graduate high school. So imagine you needed a minimum grade on say the SAT to pass high school and score an even higher grade to be admitted to a college!

Am I right on the tests?

Objective standards with no bonus or penalties for certain groups as a condition for college? Never happen. But that’s because so-called free college is not about efficient or optimal education. It’s about pandering for votes.

Sounds like you guys cracked the case!

Yeah, look at all the rage against the SAT as it stands and at testing in general. Now imagine if one had to actually PASS a test to graduate and even more, to get a high grade to get into college!

The US is actually one of the few countries that doesnt have any sort of national standardized tests one must pass to not only graduate but also to move up in grades or levels.

Add onto this every state in the US has its own rules. Some states say every HS graduate can get into state universities while others require certain SAT or ACT scores or to be in your HS top percentage or have a certain grade point average.

To be honest as it is right now top students already get showered with generous financial aid and scholarships.

I think by know it should be clear that I do read my cites before posting, thank you very much.

Seems that you missed that part about “potential drawbacks” as in: not a biggie really when taking the big picture into context, nothing that some rules about limits on people that are clearly doing that will not solve. It also sounded to me like a “problem” we should risk having just because it is not the norm anyhow.

Well ok. But how about this. Free college but ONLY if you pass the certain qualifications:

  1. Top scores on the SAT.
  2. Top grades in school and must take AP courses.
  3. Letters from teachers and principals vouching that you are a worthy student. EG. you were not a trouble maker, had no excess absences or tardies, went the extra mile to help others and such.
  4. Background check and drug testing.
  5. When in college must take 16 or more hours a semester and not have a GPA drop lower than 3.0.
  6. Time limits on graduation such as 5 years for a Bachelors.
    How about that?

Agree somewhat, but there are items there that require modifications, for 1-2-3, there is the realization that those do not account for many bad environments and sandbagging coming from poverty situations.

And it has to be mentioned: Number 4 is still an attempt at ignoring how things are changing regarding the irrational war on drugs, and it seems to me that a lot is still related to what Nixon and others saw, to use the war against drugs to undermine the poor and minorities.

Related to education, there is evidence that continuing education does help people that were involved with drugs to have further incentives to clean their act or to not get involved with drugs.

With number 5 it is a case where I would also plug in more means testing so as to affect less the people with lower resources, getting a bit of a low grade is less important IMHO than showing that you do attend school and finish your assignments. So, yes on the attendance part, but not so much on the grade, perhaps not allowing it to get lower than 2.5 .

Number 6 is just about OK, with the only addition that there should be incentives to switch to more in tune with their aptitude mayors than the pie in the sky some students get into.

Ok, #4 drug testing could be dropped.

I would add this would only pay for tuition. Books, housing, meals and such would still be paid by the student which could be paid from scholarships or loans.

Also such a system would also need a lottery type program so lets say the country has a need for mechanical engineers, then more scholarships for those and maybe fewer slots for art majors so only the top persons with talents in that would get those.

Nothing is free. If a person chooses to attend college than they should pay the costs. Just make the loans interest free and the problem is solved everyone will be happy )))

Since I missed these:

We generally call everyone a consultant, which is not terribly descriptive. But of course nobody majors in that. Recall that a major in X is not necessarily a preparation for a career in X. We had one art history major on a communications team and two others are doing program management.

The average middle class person has more purchasing power each year. Because, on average, his or her income goes up in excess of inflation. I expect 2020 to be an exception. But BLS won’t publish that datum for a year or so.

Many Students are finding that this money is simply not enough to cover their expenses. Half of students can’t afford to pay rent with their loan, this is the real issue. And they take short term/payday loans from time to time. I went down that road of using payday loans for years! I used to be a regular customer of these guys https://paydayinusa.com/states/payday-loans-in-alabama. It was all because I did not know anything about money management.

Interest free? What would be the incentive for timely repayment or to take the risk in loaning the money?