# Warren's new "detailed" MFA plan relies on a ' Employer Medicare Contribution' she never defines **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 2, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921 "2019-11-02T16:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/21 "2019-11-03T04:51:10Z")
And for what it’s worth, as someone who plans to vote for her for reasons entirely unrelated to healthcare (there isn’t really any way to express a position on that issue through one’s vote in a presidential primary IMO, regardless of how much time is wasted on it), I actually breathed a sigh of relief when she came out with this. My preference would have been continuing to duck and weave, or just finding all the money in increased growth or an elimination of fraud, waste, and abuse, but I actually think she managed to find money that won’t sound like a tax increase to most people. (Whether it would work is a minor concern to me, so I don’t see any value in telling hard truths and trying to make unpopular compromises in advance.) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/22 "2019-11-03T04:53:34Z")
> [@2ManyTacos](#): > > Can I just say that the fetishization of Democrats’ fiscal responsibility is driving me absolutely nuts on the whole M4A discussion. Literally nobody pesters the GOP when they refuse to articulate how their tax cuts and limitless military spending will be financed, but the Democrats are now just _hammering_ each other over ‘OMG but how will you PAY FOR IT?!’ > > Just have them all say that M4A will pay for itself like GOP tax cuts always do, and move on. So because Republicans are fiscally irresponsible, means Democrats should follow suit? I think a lot of these partisan “eye for an eye” opinions miss that it’s the nation \*losing \*its eyesight. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/23 "2019-11-03T05:10:18Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > Let’s say today’s average health plan is $18,000 per employee. The employer might withhold (for tax reasons) $12,000 of that and require the employee to pay $6000. > > When the new EMC is calculated the employer would owe Uncle Sam all $18,000 times 98%. A big tax hike per employee. > > As a cost accountant I would advise my employer to fire me and contract me back at 80% of my pay package. I would gladly accept that and let other working stiffs pay for my MFA. > Edit (Remember my pay package includes FICA, SS withholding, PTO, etc. 80% of my pay package would be over a $10,000 income increase for me) “Let’s say?” Last time I came into one of your threads with numbers, I was completely ignored. So let’s go with reality as opposed to “let’s saying”, shall we? Monday afternoon at 2pm I give an enrollment meeting to a small employer, who is offering a BCBS S665CHC plan with the following premium structure: Employee-Only - $579 E+Spouse - $1,158 E+Family - $1,737 I can tell you, for a fact, that the “average employer plan is” _not_ “$18,000 per employee”, and I truly have zero idea why you would think fake numbers support any argument around here. Where in God’s name did you come up with $18k per employee? Seriously, would love a cite. So, having made that point, let’s see what this gets them: Deductible: $4,000 Max Out of Pocket: $7,900 Now, here’s the thing: _all Obamacare plans are the same in regards to coverage, the **only** difference in these plans are the financial arrangements you make with the insurance company and your employer_. What this means in actuality for my small group is this: The insurance company and medical industry require them to spend approximately $10,000 before they reach first-dollar coverage. This doesn’t matter if they want a gold-plated plan with low-assed deductibles (this will have a gold-plated premium as well), or a bare-bones catastrophic plan with highest deductible allowed by law (and cheap, cheap premiums). If it weren’t such a PITA to remove all the HIPPA stuff I’d be glad to upload the 56-page renewal so we can go over this in excruciating detail, but in the end, the math is simple: Amount you must spend before you receive your first dollar in coverage = (Annual Premium + Deductible) Amount you are required to spend annually if you are hit with catastrophic health care costs: Annual Premium + Max Out of Pocket ($7,900 cap here in Texas). So, my group: 1. Spends $6,948 per _covered individual_ just on premium 2. Must spend $3,000 before they receive any benefits beyond copays 3. Must spend an additional $4,900 beyond that if they are truly sick 4. Must repeat this process every year for the rest of their employment 5. Breathes a sigh of relief when they can get on Medicare If you are going to make these arguments, Linden, please do so from a basis of fact, with citations. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/24 "2019-11-03T05:17:10Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I can tell you, for a fact, that the “average employer plan is” _not_ “$18,000 per employee”, and I truly have zero idea why you would think fake numbers support any argument around here. Where in God’s name did you come up with $18k per employee? Seriously, would love a cite. $18k is pretty close to what I’ve seen as the average for a _family_ plan. Edit: [This says 20.](https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/hr-topics/benefits/pages/average-family-premiums-top-$20,000.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/25 "2019-11-03T05:30:43Z")
> [@2ManyTacos](#): > > Can I just say that the fetishization of Democrats’ fiscal responsibility is driving me absolutely nuts on the whole M4A discussion. Literally nobody pesters the GOP when they refuse to articulate how their tax cuts and limitless military spending will be financed, but the Democrats are now just _hammering_ each other over ‘OMG but how will you PAY FOR IT?!’ > > Just have them all say that M4A will pay for itself like GOP tax cuts always do, and move on. This, and subsequent replies along these lines are a hijack. This thread is about Warren’s MFA plan, not a comparison to Trump or other GOP actions. Drop the line of discussion that is about GOP, Trump, or other opponents plans unless it is directly relevant to Warren’s M4A plan. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/26 "2019-11-03T05:32:38Z")
But that’s not what he said. He said $18k per employee, and that’s not even close or the correct way to look at it as it should be per named insured. And even then, in the small group market in Texas, a State which rejected Medicare expansion to make insurance more adfordable, the number to use is $7k/person, not $18k/family. Standing by my experience and math. Yes, the family plan is $18k but that does not mean that the average employee gets $18k in insurance - in our experience, 60% get the Employee-Only plan, and most employers only pay for the e-only portion. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/27 "2019-11-03T06:06:48Z")
My basic view is that MFA is dead on arrival even if Warren wins and the Dems retake the Senate so this plan is only interesting in terms of its short-term political effect and it’s a mixed bag. Warren probably solves her immediate problem of explaining how she will pay for it without raising middle-class taxes though critics will call the Employer Medicare Contribution a tax anyway. OTOH she creates new problems for herself by being unnecessarily specific about how she will cut costs and targeting doctors and hospitals. She should have just said she would target pharmaceutical companies and hand-waved the rest (there is a huge amount of hand-waving in her plan anyway). Overall I still think this is going to be a big political burden for her. She will face months of incisive critique from Buttigieg and other primary opponents as well as moderate Democrats in general. If she wins the nomination, she will face the biggest avalanche of corporate money in political history as well as strong opposition from most of the healthcare sector including doctors and hospital. The Republican party will be completely united while the Democrats will be divided and many candidates running in purple districts/states will explicitly reject MFA making Warren look more extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/28 "2019-11-03T12:59:47Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > But that’s not what he said. He said $18k per employee, and that’s not even close or the correct way to look at it as it should be per named insured. And even then, in the small group market in Texas, a State which rejected Medicare expansion to make insurance more adfordable, the number to use is $7k/person, not $18k/family. > > Standing by my experience and math. Yes, the family plan is $18k but that does not mean that the average employee gets $18k in insurance - in our experience, 60% get the Employee-Only plan, and most employers only pay for the e-only portion. So it’s not a “fake number” like you wrote. It may be the wrong number, but it’s not made up. And my plans are not “per named insured”. I could have 20 kids and the family plan doesn’t change. Seems odd. I don’t know how common it is. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/29 "2019-11-04T02:44:07Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > The obsession by the candidates (all of them) with writing this kind of massive legislation in advance is just bizarre, let alone their desire to “pay for” all of their fictitious details in advance. > > Like, the actual best-case health care bill is going to be bribing Chris Coons to vote for a tax-advantaged health savings account system that nobody knows how to use because you need a crystal ball and a six-page IRS form to use it, and even that is going to be derided as a communist takeover of healthcare and lead to a 70-vote swing to the Republicans in 2022, so why do this whole dance where everyone (again, not just the M4A folks) fights over whose imaginary pony gallops the fastest. > > Oh well, I’m sure this will be a fun hour of the next debate! _snooze_ Pretty much. Best case scenario, the democrats will pass some increased subsidies for the 3% of people who get private insurance via the exchanges. Medicare for all, a public option, Rx negotiation, Rx importation, etc all offend the rich and powerful and the democratic congress aren’t going to pass them. They’ll just talk about them. If we’re really lucky, they’ll give medicaid to the states that didn’t expand it somehow too. And sadly thats the best case, more subsidies to buy private insurance in a broken, brutal, overpriced system. IMO we won’t get real UHC until the 2050s, and it won’t be M4A. It’ll probably be more like the systems in the Netherlands or Switzerland. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/30 "2019-11-04T23:12:36Z")
I feel like I’m perpetually out of the loop on the details for these various MFA proposals. To my ignorant mind, it seems relatively “simple” to implement – 1. Make everyone automatically covered under Medicare 2. Jack up taxes in order to get all of the money currently going towards private insurance 3. Companies currently offering private insurance as a benefit stop doing so, and give the money they were spending to the government instead as a payroll tax (for the convenience of the individual) 4. If people want insurance above and beyond Medicare they can still get that from private insurers I’ve been rather, confused, let’s say, that some of the proposals being kicked around don’t adhere to this basic pattern, e.g. proposals that will ban private insurance. But what’s the story with not raising taxes on the middle class? Where does the money for MFA come from if not, to some degree, the middle class? Where does the money currently going to private insurers covering the middle class go? Is this a semantics thing or do I fundamentally misunderstand the concept of universal healthcare? ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/31 "2019-11-04T23:30:00Z")
People were too stupid to understand that your taxes going up $1000 while your insurance premiums went down $2000 was ultimately a better deal and she kept on getting hammered on “You’ll make teh taxes go up” so she said fine and released a plan where you aren’t being taxed more but your employer is being taxed more, making this technically not a middle class tax increase. It’s a stupid dodge to avoid a stupid talking point that ultimately makes the entire system slightly worse but that’s how you play the game in a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/32 "2019-11-04T23:40:24Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > People were too stupid to understand that your taxes going up $1000 while your insurance premiums went down $2000 was ultimately a better deal and she kept on getting hammered on “You’ll make teh taxes go up” so she said fine and released a plan where you aren’t being taxed more but your employer is being taxed more, making this technically not a middle class tax increase. It’s a stupid dodge to avoid a stupid talking point that ultimately makes the entire system slightly worse but that’s how you play the game in a democracy. But if I’m self employed, and paying $2000 a month directly to an insurance company, won’t my taxes go up under Warren’s MFA plan? How could they not? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/33 "2019-11-04T23:44:52Z")
If you’re earning over a certain amount, I’m guessing your taxes will go up. However, as the previous poster said, your value would, in theory, be better overall. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/34 "2019-11-04T23:53:17Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > If you’re earning over a certain amount, I’m guessing your taxes will go up. However, as the previous poster said, your value would, in theory, be better overall. Well “earning over a certain amount” sounds like it would have to include most of what we think of as the “middle class,” and “I guess I their taxes would go up” sounds like a big ol’ nuclear “If you like your plan you can keep it.” I’m not saying convince me MFA is a good value, I’m saying, explain how she can say middle class taxes won’t go up and still pay for MFA. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/35 "2019-11-05T00:25:00Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Well “earning over a certain amount” sounds like it would have to include most of what we think of as the “middle class,” and “I guess I their taxes would go up” sounds like a big ol’ nuclear “If you like your plan you can keep it.” > > I’m not saying convince me MFA is a good value, I’m saying, explain how she can say middle class taxes won’t go up and still pay for MFA. I’ll let her explain it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/36 "2019-11-05T00:36:08Z")
There is already a Warren MFA plan thread: [Warren’s new “detailed” MFA plan relies on a ’ Employer Medicare Contribution’ she never defines](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=884822) ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/37 "2019-11-05T00:42:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > There is already a Warren MFA plan thread: > [Warren’s new “detailed” MFA plan relies on a ’ Employer Medicare Contribution’ she never defines](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=884822) Thank you. I’m embarrassed to admit that even though I put this in the same forum, I somehow missed it. I can see that many other dopers are also confounded and annoyed at the specifics of this plan. Mods, you can lock this up and I’ll take my interest to that other thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/38 "2019-11-05T00:48:03Z")
Post 30-37 were merged from a parallel thread started today. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/39 "2019-11-05T00:55:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Medicare for All is a fine idea, Warren…just be honest and upfront about the details and stop hiding. No, just the opposite; just be vague, promise the moon, promise to soak the rich, and then compromise. That’s how this works. By trying to analyze the trees, she’s getting lost in the forest. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921/40 "2019-11-05T06:14:42Z")
This is seriously turning into a “Read my lips, no new taxes” moment. > **[Billionaires Only? Warren Errs in Saying Whom Her Health Plan Would Tax...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/03/us/politics/elizabeth-warren-health-plan-billionaires.html)** > > The Massachusetts senator told reporters that her plan to pay for “Medicare for all” would raise taxes only on billionaires, but that differs from the proposal she unveiled on Friday. Warren claims that only billionaires will bear the burden for the plan and that nobody who falls under the threshold of “billionaire” is going to pay “a penny more.” This is just asking for trouble. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warrens-new-detailed-mfa-plan-relies-on-a-employer-medicare-contribution-she-never-defines/842921.md?page=3)