# Wars of the Roses **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 14, 2008, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wars-of-the-roses/472700 "2008-11-14T13:36:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wars-of-the-roses/472700/21 "2013-06-26T21:50:32Z")
I have a book called _The Lisle Letters_, which is an abridged copy of a 3-volume set of Lord Lisle’s letters. Lord Lisle was a one of the last surviving fairly direct Platagenets, only a little bit illegitimate. As a result, Henry VII’s spies kept very close tabs on him, eventually arresting him for suspected treason; he was kept in the Tower and had a heart attack when told he was being released. In the process of keeping tabs on him, and after his arrest, they collected enough of his personal correspondence to fill 3 volumes. Henry VII and VIII were well aware that they had a less-than-sterling claim to the throne. As the Lady Jane Grey episode (much) later demonstrated, any faction that wanted power need only find a valid figurehead to stand behind to give their cause legitimacy, even if that person themselves harboured no great ambition. As a result, a lot of the Tudor activity was keeping stiflingly serious tabs on any potential rivals and preventing them from getting too friendly with rival factions. > **[Arthur Plantagenet, 1st Viscount Lisle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Plantagenet,_1st_Viscount_Lisle)** > > Arthur Plantagenet, 1st Viscount Lisle, KG (died 3 March 1542) was an illegitimate son of the English king Edward IV, half-brother-in-law of Henry VII, and an uncle of Henry VIII, at whose court he was a prominent figure and by whom he was appointed Lord Deputy of Calais (1533–40). The survival of a large collection of his correspondence in the Lisle Letters makes his life one of the best documented of his era. > Arthur Plantagenet was born between 1461 and 1475 in Calais, which was then an Engl... ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wars-of-the-roses/472700/22 "2013-06-27T01:30:51Z")
Specifically, Lord Lisle was Edward IV’s son. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wars-of-the-roses/472700/23 "2013-06-27T01:33:34Z")
> [@glee](#): > > There are still cricket teams from Lancashire and Yorkshire, if that helps… Yeah. Their first match is still being played. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wars-of-the-roses/472700/24 "2013-06-27T02:01:09Z")
If Henry makes his agreement to marry Elizabeth in December of 1483, it must mean that the Yorkists knew by that time that the Edward V and the Duke were dead. Incidentally, Elizabeth Woodville, the mother of Elizabeth of York and Edward IV’s wife/concubine (if you believe Richard III) lost her three sons, her brother and her husband within a space of one year. The poor woman must have gone mad. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wars-of-the-roses/472700/25 "2013-06-27T02:07:05Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Did Henry VII and Elizabeth of York genuinely love each other, either in the beginning or after awhile, or was it purely a marriage of political and dynastic convenience? Do we even know today? Henry VIII OTH adored his mother. Even in his old age he continued to be moved to tears recollecting her death. I do wonder what would have happened if she had still been alive come the whole Anne Boleyn issue came about, she might have been able to restrain Henry. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wars-of-the-roses/472700/26 "2013-06-27T15:54:44Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yes, I know, make the zombie jokes… I don’t normally complain about resurrections. But … > [@RealityChuck](#): > > Sort of. The true history (suppressed by the Tudors) was the Richard IV took over after Richard III’s death at Bosworth Field. Blackadder did become king (briefly\*) when Richard IV died, but Henry Tudor soon took over. > > 🆒 > > \*_Very_ briefly. Change my username to **gullibulus** if you insist, but this had me scratching my head reviewing my history books. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wars-of-the-roses/472700/27 "2013-06-28T00:17:18Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Change my username to **gullibulus** if you insist, but this had me scratching my head reviewing my history books. :smack: If you intend to post on this board, you really need to watch as many BBC imports on NPR as you can. (That and The Princess Bride, of course.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wars-of-the-roses/472700.md?page=1)