# Warsaw uprising 1944
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warsaw-uprising-1944/257856
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 1, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warsaw-uprising-1944/257856 "2004-08-01T18:32:42Z")
**Posts on this page:** 4
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@nonpolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonpolar)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warsaw-uprising-1944/257856/21 "2004-08-03T17:03:33Z")
Don’t blame Poles ,the did the best they could to help Jews.
Why Jews did not stay in Mid East in ancient times?Why the had to go to Europe.?From what I know Jews and other “religious” groups had very good live under moslems and turks.
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warsaw-uprising-1944/257856/22 "2004-08-03T18:41:33Z")
> [@Lynwood Slim](#):
>
> Total French military KIA in WWII were about 250,000, and most of those occured in May-June 1940.
>
> It is true that about 200,000 French civilians died, but it is not clear whether this includes deported Jews (it probably does). In any case, there is no evidence that I can find that says they were resistance fighters. I would be surprised if the number of Resistance Fighters casualties surpassed a few thousand, if that.
Here’s a breakdown of the french losses :
Military losses under french uniform (including africans, algerians, etc…) :
1939-1940 : 123 000
prisonners dead in captivity : 45 000
Free French forces, Italy army and Liberation forces : 55 000
Resistant KIA : 8 000
Total : 231 000
Military losses under German uniform :
Enlisted Alsatians : 40 000
Volunteers : 2 000
Total : 42 000
Civilian losses excluding deported people :
German operations : 258 000
Allied bombings : 67 000
Allied land operations : 58 000
Executions by the german authorities (mostly resistants and hostages ) : 29 000
Executions by french resistance mostly during the liberation: at least 15 000
Total : 427 000
Dead in deportation :
Racial : Between 80 000 and 120 000 depending on the sources. Amongst them 75 000 Jews according to Serge Klarsfeld, 15 000 being french Jews and 60 000 foreign refugees present in France in 1940.
Political, resistants, others : 139 000
Total : 222 000 (using a 83 000 figure for racial deportees) if including foreign Jews, 162 000 if only including french citizens.
Total death toll : 839 000
I would note that all these figures are estimates. For instance the civilians non-deportation, non-under german uniform figures I gave amount to 658 000 deaths. But the first internet site I picked at random estimates it at only 535 000, the second one gives an estimate of 600 000 (not specifying whether or not deportees are included), the third one estimates a total of 400 000 civilians (including deportees) instead of 649 000 in my figures, and so on.
The only figures on which there seems to be an overall agreement are the military losses (210-250 000) and the Jewish deportees (75-85 000).
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warsaw-uprising-1944/257856/23 "2004-08-03T19:47:29Z")
> [@nonpolar](#):
>
> Why Jews did not stay in Mid East in ancient times?Why the had to go to Europe.?From what I know Jews and other “religious” groups had very good live under moslems and turks.
Jews lived in Europe before they lived under Moslem Rule. Jew also lived in Europe before they lived under _Christian_ rule. Your question makes no sense.
However, I’d like to thank you for remindin me that over the course of history Moslems have traditionally been much more humane and tolerant than Christians, at least as far as Jews were concerned. This is a fact we often forget.
As for my previous statements - I don’t think an apology is warrented, yet. Everything I’ve learned in school and researched independently have indicated that Poles who helped save Jews, either individuals or organizations, were the exeption rather than the rule. From [here](http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/cgi-bin/data.show.pl?di=record&da=encyclopedia&ke=107) :
> [@](#):
>
> During the War Jews were appalled by the lack of aid they received from their neighbors and what they took to be avariciousness as some Poles usurped Jewish property now suddenly become available. The small number of Poles who preyed on Jews by turning them in for rewards made every Pole a risk to Jewish confidence. Jewish partisans were attacked and killed by Polish right wing nationalist groups who instead of making common cause against the Germans regarded the Jews as their enemies also.
>
> It is hard to know how many Poles had sympathy for their Jewish neighbors but were paralyzed into inaction by fear. Yet incidents described above were frequent enough that it was a common Jewish perception of Polish attitudes that they were either indifferent to Jewish suffering or positively glad that the Jews were being removed.
And well I may be wrong - data can be ambiguous, and myths can get entrenched - incidents like [this](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Kielce.html) tend to lower my sympathy levels towards Polish suffering. Besides, they only rebelled en mass at the last minute, and for purely political reasons. The Serbs, OTOH, fought a fierce guerilla war against the Nazis that kept an entire army chasing partisans throughout the Balkans, delaying the invasion of Russia and perhaps winning the war. _That’s_ heroism.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/warsaw-uprising-1944/257856/24 "2004-08-03T22:11:58Z")
I’m afraid I have to agree with **Alessan**. In addition to the Kielce massacre, during the war itself, there was the massacre at Jedwabne, which has traditionally been blamed on the Germans. However, there’s more and more evidence that the massacre was committed by the Poles. In fact, there are reports that, after the Germans invaded Poland, they were surprised at the level of anti-Semitism there. When I say this, I don’t mean to minimize the actions of those Poles who did act to help Jews. However, they were in the minority.
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