# Was 1988 the most negative election in recent history? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 9, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028 "2015-06-09T01:17:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/81 "2015-06-11T13:42:55Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I know. If only the Republicans could have focused on an issue other than race, oh, I don’t know, murder perhaps…? Yes, they could have. But, they didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/82 "2015-06-11T18:35:20Z")
When I say that Democrats surrendered on law and order, I mean it in the same way they surrendered on guns(for awhile): essentially adopting the conservative position. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/83 "2015-06-11T19:03:05Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > When I say that Democrats surrendered on law and order, I mean it in the same way they surrendered on guns(for awhile): essentially adopting the conservative position. When Republicans say “law and order”, it’s dog whistle talk for “keep them blacks in their place!”, just as when they say “welfare” they mean “black”. You gotta listen to the code, or pay attention to location of speeches (Philadelphia, MS or Liberty U). ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/84 "2015-06-11T20:05:06Z")
So when Martin O’Malley and Bill Clinton cracked down on crime and stuffed the prisons, and lauded their performance in that regard, what was that code for? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/85 "2015-06-11T22:44:56Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So, what about that 1998 Oklahoma City bombing. Don’t recall it coming up as a presidential election issue in 2000. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/86 "2015-06-11T23:17:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It was both effective and outrageous. Elections do have some element of principle involved, they aren’t solely about winning. Winning you can easily do by pandering to fears. Any tinhorn pol knows how to do that. Isn’t that a good fear to pander to, though? I mean, if you’re the governor of a state that’s letting out convicted murders on furloughs that then go around killing people, that’s kind of a not a good program. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/87 "2015-06-11T23:39:45Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/88 "2015-06-11T23:44:04Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > OK, it wasn’t run BY Bush, it was run FOR Bush. I’m not going to pretend these “independent” PACs absolve the candidate from responsibility of what is aired on his behalf. So you think John Kerry was responsible for the MoveOn ads comparing Bush to Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/89 "2015-06-12T00:09:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So you think John Kerry was responsible for the MoveOn ads comparing Bush to Hitler. The MoveOn ads were the result of a completely-open-to-the-public ad contest, and the comparing Bush to Hitler ads did not win. That doesn’t seem to compare too closely to ads run by a PAC allied with a candidate. Did PACs even have the nominal separation back then they do today? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/90 "2015-06-12T12:09:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Isn’t that a good fear to pander to, though? It’s still pandering. > [@](#): > > I mean, if you’re the governor of a state that’s letting out convicted murders on furloughs that then go around killing people, that’s kind of a not a good program. If it substantially reduces recidivism rates, then yes, it’s a good program, even if the rate does not go to zero. Horton was an exception presented as the rule, and I think you’d agree that’s dishonest to the point of lying. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/91 "2015-06-12T12:22:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > So when Martin O’Malley and Bill Clinton cracked down on crime and stuffed the prisons, and lauded their performance in that regard, what was that code for? [Clinton regrets his crime bill.](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/241247-bill-clinton-renounces-his-1994-crime-bill) To be fair to Bill, he had to accept some measures that went further than he wanted to get it passed. > [@Velocity](#): > > So, what about that 1998 Oklahoma City bombing. Did anyone make any political hay out of that event? Not that I can recall. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So you think John Kerry was responsible for the MoveOn ads comparing Bush to Hitler. Kerry had no control over that ad. The Willie Horton ad was orchestrated by people much closer to Bush than MoveOn was to Kerry. > [@Nema98](#): > > More competent than Reagan if I may ask? Bush I was indeed more competent than Reagan. His handling of the first Gulf War was masterful in the way he methodically built a coalition and the way he resisted the urge to topple Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/92 "2015-06-12T13:33:48Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Kerry had no control over that ad. Yes he did. It was run by a PAC. If you think PACs always coordinate their activities with official campaigns, Kerry is responsible for the MoveOn ads. Or else you are employing a double standard. Which would be unfortunate, but has the advantage of refuting your nonsense as it stands. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/93 "2015-06-12T13:43:06Z")
What, in your mind, made it a “MoveOn ad”? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/94 "2015-06-12T14:00:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes he did. It was run by a PAC. If you think PACs always coordinate their activities with official campaigns, Kerry is responsible for the MoveOn ads. > > Or else you are employing a double standard. Which would be unfortunate, but has the advantage of refuting your nonsense as it stands. > > Regards, > Shodan [The ads never aired.](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/06/us/the-2004-campaign-advertising-bush-hitler-ads-draw-criticism.html) They were entries in a contest. They did not win. [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org) did not endorse the ads. > [@](#): > > ‘‘None of these was our ad,’’ Mr. Boyd said in a statement. ‘‘Nor did their appearance constitute endorsement or sponsorship by [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) Voter Fund.’’ So Kerry is responsible for an ad that never aired that was simply an entry in a contest that didn’t win. About par for Republican critical analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/95 "2015-06-12T15:00:17Z")
Getting back to the actual question: The “Willie Horton” ad is probably the single most famous example of a negative Presidential ad in “recent times”–defined her as “in my time as a voter” (I voted for the first time in '78). Whether it deserves such fame is a separate question. And how effective it actually was is a separate question. (Full disclosure, I voted for Dukakis, who I thought was a very poor candidate, in most ways the weakest Dem of my voting career, INCLUDING 1980 Carter. My sense then, and now, is that Dukakis had no chance of winning with or without the ad.) Other than that one commercial, I don’t remember 1988 being a hotbed of negative campaigning–certainly not more so than any other year of “recent times.” If having the most famous (justifiably or not) negative campaign ad makes an election the most negative of all, then maybe '88 is the right choice. That’s not a definition I’d choose, though. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/96 "2015-06-12T15:37:42Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > The “Willie Horton” ad is probably the single most famous example of a negative Presidential ad in “recent times”–defined her as “in my time as a voter” (I voted for the first time in '78). LBJ’s Daisy ad, suggesting that Goldwater wanted to launch the nukes and get us all destroyed, is often mentioned in this context, even though it only ran once. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/97 "2015-06-12T15:48:25Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > Other than that one commercial, I don’t remember 1988 being a hotbed of negative campaigning–certainly not more so than any other year of “recent times.” If having the most famous (justifiably or not) negative campaign ad makes an election the most negative of all, then maybe '88 is the right choice. That’s not a definition I’d choose, though. It was also a campaign about how often Bush liked to pledge allegiance and how much he loved the flag and what Dukakis and his ACLU friends wanted to do to it. That, Boston Harbor, Willie Horton, and the tank. So the entire campaign was pretty much negative. Now Dukakis certainly had weaknesses as a candidate in terms of his personality, but it seems to me that this is not what Bush’s campaign was about. George Bush himself is not exactly a charismatic guy himself. It was basically two geeks going head to head. But 1988 seems to be the first campaign in which the main thrust of the Republican message was “Democrats aren’t real Americans.” ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/98 "2015-06-12T15:53:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If it substantially reduces recidivism rates, then yes, it’s a good program, even if the rate does not go to zero. Horton was an exception presented as the rule, and I think you’d agree that’s dishonest to the point of lying. Yes, but try convincing voters, \*“The program led to a stabbing and rape, but it’s worth it because the program reduces recidivism!” \* It wouldn’t win votes. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/99 "2015-06-12T17:02:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If it substantially reduces recidivism rates, then yes, it’s a good program, even if the rate does not go to zero. Horton was an exception presented as the rule, and I think you’d agree that’s dishonest to the point of lying. I think the argument was that the furlough program shouldn’t have been applied to lifers, since a) they’re dangerous to the public, b) have an increased incentive not to return to prison, and c) in the absence of the program, their recidivism rate as it applies to the non-incarcerated public would be zero, since they’d never be let out. Furthermore, the only reason the program did apply to lifers is because Dukakis vetoed the bill that would have blocked lifers from the program. I’ve never voted for a Republican for president, and this strikes me as a valid argument. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028/100 "2015-06-12T17:37:33Z")
I know very well why the ad was effective. The discussion is about it being irresponsible too. > [@Acsenray](#): > > But 1988 seems to be the first campaign in which the main thrust of the Republican message was “Democrats aren’t real Americans.” I’d put it back to Reagan in 1984. [Jeane Kirkpatrick’s keynote speech to the convention](But 1988 seems to be the first campaign in which the main thrust of the Republican message was “Democrats aren’t real Americans.”) was pretty much nothing but accusing Democrats of being traitors, cowards, and gay-lovers, and the applause was thunderous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-1988-the-most-negative-election-in-recent-history/722028.md?page=6)