# Was Abraham Lincoln gay? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 22, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823 "2017-01-22T14:32:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/41 "2017-01-28T10:24:24Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Friedrich von Steuben, the Prussian General who trained the Continental Army in proper tactics during the American War of Independence, was almost certainly gay. We have no idea if he had a fling with Hamilton, but he seems to have had relationships with a couple other officers in the Continental Army. Well change “almost certainly” to “unknowable, but pretty good evidence”. Basically i) He was accused of homosexual acts in Europe, which he denied ii) Those were made by his political enemies. iii) On the other hand just because the accusations came from enemies, does not necessarily make them untrue. Indeed, sexual deviancy allegations were pretty common in Europe at the time and the fact he made no real effort to defend himself, but decamped to America is quite interesting. iv) He is supposed to have had a relationship, with William North; a subordinate. But, North was married and had no other known homosexual dalliance. Benjamin Walker, is another person he is supposed to have had relationships with, although in his case,I think the consensus is that he flattered the Baron hoping to be named his heir, but never intended to reciprocate any affection. Either way, a sexual relationship would two subordinates would have **not** been tolerated then (or indeed now) so they would have had to be discrete. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/42 "2017-01-28T12:06:36Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > agenda\* > > \*Latin pun She who must be “done”? Or…?? ---
**Author:** ![DrForrester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@DrForrester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrForrester)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/43 "2017-01-28T15:10:22Z")
Speaking of gay people in history, I saw an interview of Graham Chapman (of Monty Python fame) who described coming to terms with his sexuality. He decided that the best way for him to really understand his attractions was to ride public transportation and every time that he would see someone to whom he was attracted, he would write it down. After some time, he did the math and discovered that 7 times out of 10, the person was a male. This is probably the most direct assessment, certainly given publicly, I have ever heard. I don’t think many people are particularly honest with themselves let alone with anyone else let alone in public on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![hildebrandt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@hildebrandt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hildebrandt)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/44 "2017-01-29T23:55:31Z")
There’s a big false dichotomy any time someone says something along the lines of “but he was married/had kids/was a skirt chaser.” Literally, in the sense of any shade of bisexuality. Lincoln could’ve had an inclination which started and ended with Speed and that bed. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/45 "2017-01-30T03:01:02Z")
Well, when someone like Melville was married, and there was _no suggestion_ of his ever being attracted to men, it would be tenuous to suggest his marriage is proposed to reject possible bisexuality. Seriously, he might have been a drug addict, a murderer or a card sharp; but until there is the faintest mention of his partaking in these pastimes, there is no shame in declaring his innocence. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/46 "2017-01-30T18:59:13Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Friedrich von Steuben, the Prussian General who trained the Continental Army in proper tactics during the American War of Independence, was almost certainly gay. We have no idea if he had a fling with Hamilton, but he seems to have had relationships with a couple other officers in the Continental Army. When gays in the military was still a big news item I used to take some satisfaction in knowing the von Steuben monument was visible from/a short walk from the White House in LaFayette Square and is probably [the gayest monument in D.C.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Steuben_Monument_by_Albert_Jaegers_in_Lafayette_Park_Washington,_DC.jpeg/220px-Steuben_Monument_by_Albert_Jaegers_in_Lafayette_Park_Washington,_DC.jpeg). ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/47 "2017-01-30T21:13:35Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > When gays in the military was still a big news item I used to take some satisfaction in knowing the von Steuben monument was visible from/a short walk from the White House in LaFayette Square and is probably [the gayest monument in D.C.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Steuben_Monument_by_Albert_Jaegers_in_Lafayette_Park_Washington,_DC.jpeg/220px-Steuben_Monument_by_Albert_Jaegers_in_Lafayette_Park_Washington,_DC.jpeg). When I was in Army basic training we received a whole block of instruction on how wonderful he was. We owe it all to him! Father of the modern Army! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/48 "2017-01-30T22:51:06Z")
I’ve got one: Rose Cleveland (Grover’s sister) fulfilled the role of White House hostess before he got married to Frances Folsom. She is listed as _de facto_ First Lady during that interval. She married no man but later in life she took off to Italy with her girlfriend Evangeline Simpson as an explicitly lesbian couple. [Interesting woman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Cleveland). “It was said, ‘Rose Cleveland was a bluestocking, more interested in pursuing scholarly endeavors than in entertaining cabinet wives and foreign dignitaries.’ Rose was an intellectual, and she preferred to lecture rather than entertain, but she made sure to perform her duties as First Lady as a favor to her brother.” As for Eleanor Roosevelt, definitely. ---
**Author:** ![Clothes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Clothes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothes)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/49 "2017-01-31T06:54:55Z")
General Washington and Rochambeau buggering Hessians with the fireside aglow Spendin’ up their money, drinkin’ up their pay they’re never gonna win the war this-a-way! -S_oldier’s Joy_, old fiddle tune (version) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/50 "2017-01-31T22:12:51Z")
> [@Clothes](#): > > General Washington and Rochambeau > buggering Hessians I can’t quite make sense of this. Washington & French allies fought on the opposite side of the Hessians. Unless it’s meant to be deliberately absurd, like mice chasing cats into holes in “The World Turn’d Upside Down.” ---
**Author:** ![Clothes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Clothes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothes)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/51 "2017-02-01T18:28:12Z")
Presumably those particular Hessians were captives? I’m sure that was frowned upon, even absent Geneva Conventions. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/52 "2017-02-02T01:22:02Z")
He was not “flaming” gay, that is true by all accounts. He may have fingered a few assholes, given the odd reach-around, or gotten on his knees for a blowjob buddy, but I think we can all agree that it was not unusual for the times. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/53 "2017-02-04T01:45:19Z")
> [@Clothes](#): > > Presumably those particular Hessians were captives? I’m sure that was frowned upon, even absent Geneva Conventions. That’s why I hoped it was absurdist, because otherwise it means they’re accusing Washington of war crimes. Was that a British song? ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/54 "2017-02-04T02:18:06Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > That’s why I hoped it was absurdist, because otherwise it means they’re accusing Washington of war crimes. Was that a British song? It is neither absurdist nor a war crime; it’s simple rudeness, such as has dominated martial humor since Ugg of the Hedgehog tribe picked up his first rock. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/55 "2017-02-07T20:48:32Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Was that a British song? The tune is from Scottish/Irish fiddling traditions according to [Wikipedia.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldier's_Joy_(fiddle_tune)) It’s had various lyrics written to it including a version by Robert Burns. I can’t find any trace of the particular version cited though. (The only Google reference is to the post in this thread itself.) ---
**Author:** ![Clothes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Clothes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothes)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/56 "2017-02-08T21:42:26Z")
You can hear it played by the Holy Modal Rounders, two jokers who nonetheless embodied the folk process in their willingness to adapt traditional songs to their own rude sensibilities. Whether their words for Soldier’s Joy were ever sung by anyone else is an open question. There seem to be a million versions, this is one of them. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjX2DcCKZLg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjX2DcCKZLg) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2017, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823/57 "2017-02-11T00:58:45Z")
Thanks, **Clothes**. I recognized the name of the Holy Modal Rounders from the '60s hippie counterculture. Never heard that one before. It makes sense now in terms of culture jamming. (“The World Turn’d Upside Down” was culture jamming 18th-century style. Much in the vein of television’s new jazzed-up version of Ichabod Crane.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-abraham-lincoln-gay/777823.md?page=2)