# Was Amanda Knox Involved In Any Way With Her Roommate's Murder? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906 "2011-09-28T17:39:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/281 "2011-10-07T16:54:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re getting at but at first pass I don’t see any reason to accept the bare claim that these are fundamentally different. They are, but it’s not terribly important here, and i’m not going to get into it just now. > [@](#): > > The question is not whether the scenario is far-fetched. The question is whether there is sufficient evidence to prove that the scenario happened. > > Again, the question is not whether the overall scenario is unlikely, but whether you can stack pieces of shaky evidence in order to reach a reasonable inference. But my point was that evidence is looked at in the context of other evidence and a priori assumptions. You are possibly familiar with the notion that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof”, and what I’ve said is a generalization of that concept. You picked a case that you thought would show my reasoning to be flawed, possibly not realizing that in your case the evidence was lacking because it was backing an extraordinary claim and failed to measure up against that standard. > [@brazil84](#): > > I basically agree with this, but I still think that in weighing the chances of Knox’s guilt (or at least involvement in the murder), it’s reasonable to consider that the scenario where Knox, Sollecito, and Guede murder Kerchner in concert is much more far-fetched than the scenario where Guede acts alone. If you’re right about this it wouldn’t change my basic point, but my understanding is that there is independent evidence that more than one person was involved. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/282 "2011-10-07T17:07:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > , but my understanding is that there is independent evidence that more than one person was involved. Agree, I am reasonably confident that Amanda Knox was involved in the murder somehow. > [@](#): > > You picked a case that you thought would show my reasoning to be flawed, possibly not realizing that in your case the evidence was lacking because it was backing an extraordinary claim and failed to measure up against that standard I agree. If it’s not aliens but instead something more mundane, that changes things completely. If you have (1) your 10 year old child tells you he heard a man and woman screaming at eachother out on the street last night; (2) your neighbor tells you that he saw a cop car and an ambulance on the street last night. then you would have a pretty good basis to believe that there was a domestic violence incident on your street. Even if your child has a tendency to make stuff up and your neighbor doesn’t strike you as particularly trustworthy. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/283 "2011-10-07T17:53:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You picked a case that you thought would show my reasoning to be flawed, possibly not realizing that in your case the evidence was lacking because it was backing an extraordinary claim and failed to measure up against that standard. For that particular illustration, the fact that the claim happens to be extraordinary is not relevant. It’s an illustration that fundamentally flawed evidence, regardless of how much there is, cannot be aggregated to create something larger than the sum of its parts. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/284 "2011-10-07T18:02:53Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > For that particular illustration, the fact that the claim happens to be extraordinary is not relevant. It’s an illustration that fundamentally flawed evidence, regardless of how much there is, cannot be aggregated to create something larger than the sum of its parts. But the fact that the claim is extraordinary is extremely relevant and in fact is the entire reason you can’t aggregate the evidence in that case to derive the conclusion (absent other flaws in the conspiracy theorists arguments, as noted above). You’ve made an illustration that doesn’t illustrate anything. Yes, the methodology of combining various sources of inconclusive evidence is valid in the case of ET theorists, and to the extent that it wouldn’t prove their case, it’s not because of flaws in that methodology but rather because in that particular case it does not meet the necessary standard. There are any number of accepted types of evidence that would not be accepted if they were being used to prove an ET theory, and you can’t use this fact to prove - or “illustrate” - that these types of evidence are not valid when being used to prove something less sensational. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/285 "2011-10-07T18:06:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > . It’s an illustration that fundamentally flawed evidence, regardless of how much there is, cannot be aggregated to create something larger than the sum of its parts. That’s just not true. For example, if my child (who is always making up stories) tells me that he was watching TV a few minutes ago and heard on the news that Lady Gaga died; and then I walk out the door a few minutes later and the village drunk asks me if I heard that Lady Gaga died, then I will actually be pretty confident, at a minimum, that there have been news reports that Lady Gaga died. If two unreliable witnesses independently tell the same story, then it actually might be pretty believable. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/286 "2011-10-07T18:22:17Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > If two unreliable witnesses independently tell the same story, then it actually might be pretty believable. That’s only because you picked an example where you don’t really care about being wrong. Let’s add a twist – you’re the president of Lady Gaga’s record label and you’re about to step out and do a press conference on something or other, when your clueless kid and the drunk guy both come by and tell you that Lady Gaga is dead. Are you going to step out in front of the cameras and make a statement about how sad we all are at Terrible Record Label about the recent passing of one of your biggest stars? I’m guessing you’ll find that you place very little weight on the combined testimony of two terrible sources. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/287 "2011-10-07T18:28:36Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > That’s only because you picked an example where you don’t really care about being wrong. Let’s add a twist – you’re the president of Lady Gaga’s record label and you’re about to step out and do a press conference on something or other, when your clueless kid and the drunk guy both come by and tell you that Lady Gaga is dead. Are you going to step out in front of the cameras and make a statement about how sad we all are at Terrible Record Label about the recent passing of one of your biggest stars? Lol, I knew somebody was going to strawman me by pretending my example was about Lady Gaga’s actual death and not reports of her death. If I were the president of the record label confronted with this evidence, it would certainly be enough for me to call her agent and ask what is going on. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/288 "2011-10-07T18:32:01Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, I knew somebody was going to strawman me by pretending my example was about Lady Gaga’s actual death and not reports of her death. > > If I were the president of the record label confronted with this evidence, it would certainly be enough for me to call her agent and ask what is going on. And when the police are out investigating and hear things that seem reasonable but might not pan out, they follow the leads and do their job. We’re past that point now. I thought we were talking about determining one’s guilt in court, not identifying suspects. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/289 "2011-10-07T18:39:57Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I thought we were talking about determining one’s guilt in court, not identifying suspects. I thought we were talking about whether Amanda Know was involved in any way with her roommate’s murder. That’s the title of the OP. I’ve already said that - based on what I’ve seen of the case - I would vote not to convict, if I was on the jury. But I think she was probably involved. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/290 "2011-10-07T18:43:14Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I thought we were talking about determining one’s guilt in court, not identifying suspects. No, we were talking about whether independent, unreliable evidence can sometimes be combined to reach a more reliable conclusion. That was the point of my example. Do you agree that sometimes independent, unreliable evidence can sometimes be combined to reach a more reliable conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/291 "2011-10-07T19:32:39Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > If two unreliable witnesses independently tell the same story, then it actually might be pretty believable. [You](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley_phenomenon#Postmortem_Elvis_sightings)[really](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigfoot) [think](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_ness_monster) [that’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogopogo) [true](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost)? [I’m](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chupacabra) [not](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momo_(cryptid)) [sure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_Death_Worm) [that](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Lick_Monster) [I’d](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaid) [agree](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_abduction). ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/292 "2011-10-07T19:47:39Z")
> [@Terraplane](#): > > [You](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley_phenomenon#Postmortem_Elvis_sightings)[really](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigfoot) [think](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_ness_monster) [that’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogopogo) [true](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost)? [I’m](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chupacabra) [not](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momo_(cryptid)) [sure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_Death_Worm) [that](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Lick_Monster) [I’d](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaid) [agree](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_abduction). Yes, I believe it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Norder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@Dan\_Norder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Norder)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/293 "2011-10-08T16:14:07Z")
While the thread has devolved into arguing about how judgments are made in general, I apologize for getting this back to actual facts about the case. A number of people here jumped in to state opinions and have then tried to back them up with facts that even the slightest amount of reading about the case shows are not facts at all. Someone jumped in with the buying lingerie after the crime story again. Never happened. Someone said it was odd that the police would decide to focus on bringing Knox and Sollecito into it if the already had Guede unless the facts supported it. They focused originally on Knox and they didn’t know about Guede until later, when they were too far into demonizing Knox to back down. About the supposed likelihood that just because the DNA tests were botched that it still might have really been her blood there. This is one place were news coverage has fallen down in explaining what the independent expert opinion means: it’s clearly not that just that normal accepted scientific procedures weren’t followed, it’s that the steps used to do this testing would provide false positives for any person’s blood that was tested against it. If they had decided to carrying in your toothbrush (meaning any you here on this board) and then treated it the same way they treated the evidence in the Kercher murder these pinheads would have found minuscule amounts of her DNA on your brush, because they put it there. It’s a fact not mentioned much that the poor-quality DNA tests had results that showed mixed DNA from lots of people, including the DNA of the people who handled the evidence as well as several police officials. The police forensics expert needs to be fired and, frankly, sued, because she’s incompetent beyond belief. She has denied any possibility of contamination outright while running tests she didn’t have proper equipment or training to do which everyone in the field knows frequently has false positives and which were run on samples that were no kept apart from each other while collected or in the lab. No DNA test she has ever run should be accepted. I know I say it all the time here, but these boards are supposed to be fighting ignorance. Yet whenever we have a thread about any controversial topic we have a bunch of people (including some regulars I have a good idea about what bizarre they will say before I even read it just based upon previous posts) jump in posting opinions without showing any actual knowledge – or even any attempt to get basic knowledge – about the topic. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/294 "2011-10-08T17:12:53Z")
> [@](#): > > what the independent expert opinion means: Who is the expert you are referring to; who hired him; and who paid him? I don’t know the answers to these questions but I would like to know. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/295 "2011-10-08T17:50:27Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Who is the expert you are referring to; who hired him; and who paid him? I don’t know the answers to these questions but I would like to know. P.S. I did some Google searches and I think I know who you are talking about now, i.e. some experts appointed by the court post-conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/296 "2011-10-10T02:29:10Z")
No, she was not involved in any way. Hopefully she makes millions in movie & book deals, because she has been the victim of an appalling injustice. The roomate was murdered by Rudy Guede in a burglary gone wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Nathan\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/47e85d/32.png) [@Nathan\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nathan_S)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/297 "2011-10-10T13:52:31Z")
I get impatient with people who form strong opinions purely on the basis of a couple of newspaper articles. This was a complex case, and the dna evidence was only a part of it. The first panel of judges’ opinion was something like 500 pages long, and they weren’t just chit-chatting about the weather. There are a fair amount of people that think that Knox’s (and Sollecito’s) acquital was a miscarriage of justice. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/298 "2011-10-10T14:17:01Z")
> [@Dan\_Norder](#): > > Someone jumped in with the buying lingerie after the crime story again. Never happened. From the [AP](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hIDXfzO15BbuB374rtfYoEWiYATg?docId=da8917418b7d46af92c17bb737ef8e27) > [@](#): > > A lingerie shop owner testified that he saw Knox and Sollecito kissing and hugging in his shop the day after Kercher’s body was found. He said Knox bought a G-string and talked about having “hot sex” once the couple — who had been dating just a week — got home. > [@](#): > > About the supposed likelihood that just because the DNA tests were botched that it still might have really been her blood there. This is one place were news coverage has fallen down in explaining what the independent expert opinion means: it’s clearly not that just that normal accepted scientific procedures weren’t followed, it’s that the steps used to do this testing would provide false positives for any person’s blood that was tested against it. If they had decided to carrying in your toothbrush (meaning any you here on this board) and then treated it the same way they treated the evidence in the Kercher murder these pinheads would have found minuscule amounts of her DNA on your brush, because they put it there. What have you got to back up this claim? > [@](#): > > I know I say it all the time here, but these boards are supposed to be fighting ignorance. Yet whenever we have a thread about any controversial topic we have a bunch of people (including some regulars I have a good idea about what bizarre they will say before I even read it just based upon previous posts) jump in posting opinions without showing any actual knowledge – or even any attempt to get basic knowledge – about the topic. IMO, anyone is permitted to rely on major mainstream media reports without this kind of condescending snot from posters like you. You, for your part, are permitted to show them why the media got it wrong in this instance (which frankly happens all the time). Where you go wrong is in calling other people ignorant for relying on media reports without even the slightest attempt to provide any backup beyond your own superior knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/299 "2011-10-10T14:47:23Z")
On looking a bit further, I see this angle [has already been covered](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13129532&postcount=210), even more comprehensively. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/300 "2011-10-11T05:54:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > On looking a bit further, I see this angle [has already been covered](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13129532&postcount=210), even more comprehensively. What I dont understand with \*\*Dan Norder \*\*is that he has zero problem with the conviction of Guede, even though it was done by the very same people that prosecuted Knox and Sollecito (and it was a fast track trial). And views that anything Guede has said cant be considered seriously because he was just looking for a way to cut down on the time he was going to serve. If anything it also shows pretty blatantly that Kercher’s death doesnt interest at all the Knox’s fanbase. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906.md?page=16)