# Was Amanda Knox Involved In Any Way With Her Roommate's Murder? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906 "2011-09-28T17:39:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/161 "2011-10-05T14:17:08Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > In your post, you gave as _the_ reason for thinking her guilty that she doesn’t have a coherent story about where she was at the time. (I don’t know if you’re right about that or not, but I’m just noting it’s the one and single thing you said is sufficient for thinking she’s probably guilty.) > > My response is to note that this isn’t evidence for anything at all. It provides no positive reason whatsoever for thinking anything about what she was doing that night. I completely disagree. As an obvious example, consider the situation where a girl turns up brutally murdered and her husband has no coherent explanation for his whereabouts or actions at the time of the murder. Under those circumstances, one can be reasonably confident that the husband is the killer. This may not be sufficient evidence to convict the guy, but it’s still very likely that he is the killer. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/162 "2011-10-05T14:20:48Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I completely disagree. As an obvious example, consider the situation where a girl turns up brutally murdered and her husband has no coherent explanation for his whereabouts or actions at the time of the murder. Under those circumstances, one can be reasonably confident that the husband is the killer. WTF. Seriously: It means nothing. There must be positive evidence before the thought should even cross your mind. If you’d said “suspect” that would have been one thing (and still wrong IMO but not as wrong). But “reasonably confident”?! You’re not just wrong in a rational sense. What you’re doing in making this judgment is _wrong_ wrong. Like you’re-a-bad-person wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/163 "2011-10-05T14:23:33Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’ve heard of dogs that don’t bark, but I have no idea what you’re referring to here. Sample link: [Yahoo Search - Web Search](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080625030633AAOK1df) As a general matter of logic, if B follows from A, then you can infer the absence of A from the absence of B. In this case, if someone was doing something other than being involved in a murder (A) it would follow that they would be able to elucidate this (B). If they can’t, it would suggest that they were in fact involved. Of course, this is all theorical - I have no idea if they have in fact not come up with another alibi in the end. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/164 "2011-10-05T14:29:14Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Sample link: [Yahoo Search - Web Search](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080625030633AAOK1df) > > As a general matter of logic, if B follows from A, then you can infer the absence of A from the absence of B. > > In this case, if someone was doing something other than being involved in a murder (A) it would follow that they would be able to elucidate this (B). If they can’t, it would suggest that they were in fact involved. > > Of course, this is all theorical - I have no idea if they have in fact not come up with another alibi in the end. As a matter of general logic, if B follows from A, you can infer the _negation_ of A from the _negation_ of B. So you’d have to be saying something like this: “If Knox is innocent, then she can provide an account of her whereabouts during the crime. She can’t provide that account. So she’s not innocent.” This is a valid argument, but it starts from a massively faulty premise. It is simply not true that “If X is innocent of a particular crime, then X can provide an account of X’s whereabouts during that crime.” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/165 "2011-10-05T14:34:39Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > This is a valid argument, but it starts from a massively faulty premise. It is simply not true that “If X is innocent of a particular crime, then X can provide an account of X’s whereabouts during that crime.” It’s not always true, but it would generally tend to follow. That’s not a proof, but it definitely changes the probabilities. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/166 "2011-10-05T14:41:46Z")
Out of curiosity, what is the standard of review for appeals of this type in Italy. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/167 "2011-10-05T14:45:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s not always true, but it would generally tend to follow. > > That’s not a proof, but it definitely changes the probabilities. It changes the probabilities by a small amount, not an amount that would justify “reasonable confidence” even by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/168 "2011-10-05T14:48:08Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > It changes the probabilities by a small amount, not an amount that would justify “reasonable confidence” even by a long shot. I would say that depends on the details. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/169 "2011-10-05T15:14:04Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I would say that depends on the details. I agree–which is why I told **Brazil** that a lack of coherent story is not, _in and of itself_, sufficient for “reasonable confidence” of guilt. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/170 "2011-10-05T15:14:52Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I am willing to accept the possibility that many of Knox’s statements should be disregarded as having been made under duress. > > I am also willing to accept that some of the forensic evidence may have been trumped up. > > But have she and Sollecito ever been able to provide a reasonably coherent account of their actions and whereabouts for the night in question and the following day; an account which is consistent with the evidence which is not in dispute? > > If the answer is “no” (which I think is probably the case) then it’s reasonable to conclude that they were involved in the murder. This is so obviously, clearly, tragically wrong in so many ways I’m not even sure where to start. I really really hope you’re never allowed anywhere close to a jury trial. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/171 "2011-10-05T15:20:45Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > But have she and Sollecito ever been able to provide a reasonably coherent account of their actions and whereabouts for the night in question and the following day; an account which is consistent with the evidence which is not in dispute? > > If the answer is “no” (which I think is probably the case) then it’s reasonable to conclude that they were involved in the murder. Where were you on September 11, 2001? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/172 "2011-10-05T15:23:35Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’ve heard of dogs that don’t bark, but I have no idea what you’re referring to here. FYI, he’s referring to a Sherlock Holmes story, [Silver Blaze](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Blaze): > [@](#): > > Gregory (Scotland Yard detective): “Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?” > Holmes: “To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time.” > Gregory: “The dog did nothing in the night-time.” > Holmes: “That was the curious incident.” Definitely better if you can hear Jeremy Brett as the voice of Holmes. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/173 "2011-10-05T15:42:53Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I agree–which is why I told **Brazil** that a lack of coherent story is not, _in and of itself_, sufficient for “reasonable confidence” of guilt. OK, it sounds like we probably don’t disagree here. (Your initial comments seemed more emphatic.) ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/174 "2011-10-05T15:43:09Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > But have she and Sollecito ever been able to provide a reasonably coherent account of their actions and whereabouts for the night in question and the following day; an account which is consistent with the evidence which is not in dispute? > > If the answer is “no” (which I think is probably the case) then it’s reasonable to conclude that they were involved in the murder. I don’t think it’s one bit reasonable. On that day, I’m pretty sure Perugia had at least a few dozen people who had spent the night bickied out of their minds (like Knox and Sollecito did) and couldn’t give a coherent account of their actions. Does that mean it’s reasonable to conclude that they were all involved in the murder? Was it a satanic cult? Like I said, I really don’t know whether they were involved (although I don’t know of any real reason to think that they were) - but, while this might make me think of them as potential suspects, no WAY would it be enough to make me think they were guilty. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/175 "2011-10-05T16:26:34Z")
> [@](#): > > I completely disagree. As an obvious example, consider the situation where a girl turns up brutally murdered and her husband has no coherent explanation for his whereabouts or actions at the time of the murder. Under those circumstances, one can be reasonably confident that the husband is the killer. This may not be sufficient evidence to convict the guy, but it’s still very likely that he is the killer. brazil84: I’m the husband and I was fucking another woman at the time. I don’t want to admit this because a lot of people don’t like adultery. Same situation, but I want to protect the woman’s reputation. I was robbing a bank at time and I don’t want to admit to a serious crime. I’m funny that way. I was as drunk as a skunk and doing some good drugs. Of course, I’m incoherent. Just because someone can’t give a good excuse doesn’t mean they’re very likely a killer. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/176 "2011-10-05T16:43:26Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > WTF. > > Seriously: It means nothing. There must be positive evidence before the thought should even cross your mind. > > If you’d said “suspect” that would have been one thing (and still wrong IMO but not as wrong). But “reasonably confident”?! You’re not just wrong in a rational sense. What you’re doing in making this judgment is _wrong_ wrong. Like you’re-a-bad-person wrong. I don’t see why. It’s just a matter of statistical reasoning. If the night a girl is murdered just happens to be the night that her husband cannot provide a coherent explanation for his whereabouts, it’s a pretty amazing coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/177 "2011-10-05T16:46:06Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > brazil84: I’m the husband and I was fucking another woman at the time. I don’t want to admit this because a lot of people don’t like adultery. > > Same situation, but I want to protect the woman’s reputation. > > I was robbing a bank at time and I don’t want to admit to a serious crime. I’m funny that way. > > I was as drunk as a skunk and doing some good drugs. Of course, I’m incoherent. > > Just because someone can’t give a good excuse doesn’t mean they’re very likely a killer. I disagree. Unless they happen to be living in the Kingdom of Saudia Arabia, most people will admit to an adulterous affair in order to get out of a charge of murder. I agree that your scenarios might explain why a person’s story didn’t make sense at first, but the problem is that even today, there doesn’t seem to be a coherent explanation for Knox’s actions and whereabouts on the night in question and the day after. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/178 "2011-10-05T16:47:27Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I don’t see why. It’s just a matter of statistical reasoning. If the night a girl is murdered just happens to be the night that her husband cannot provide a coherent explanation for his whereabouts, it’s a pretty amazing coincidence. No it’s not probative of anything. It might mean that the husband needs to be looked at more closely, but as an indicator of guilt, it is worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/179 "2011-10-05T16:51:03Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I disagree. Unless they happen to be living in the Kingdom of Saudia Arabia, most people will admit to an adulterous affair in order to get out of a charge of murder. Is anybody else in this thread thinking of “The Long Black Veil”- for several reasons? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906/180 "2011-10-05T17:08:26Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I disagree. Unless they happen to be living in the Kingdom of Saudia Arabia, most people will admit to an adulterous affair in order to get out of a charge of murder. > > . Fun fact, people routinely make stupid and inexplicable as well as unreasonable decisions. That does not make them murderers. Also, what you state is with respect bullshit. People have admitted to crimes they did not, could not have committed. People have lied to protect others, even if it means a far worse fate for themselves. People have maintained lies even when it is in their interests to stop doing so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-amanda-knox-involved-in-any-way-with-her-roommates-murder/597906.md?page=10)