Was America really founded to be a Christian country?

Most respectfully acsenray, I must disagree. The Constitution establishes a lot of the parameters of our limited form of government, but certainly not all of them. It doesn’t say that we follow the English common law for example, or what the rights reserved to the people are (Bill of Rights). As the Declaration said, these things were self evident. I think that this debate needs to look further than the 1787 Constitution and the 1789 Bill of Rights on the issue of church and state separation. What were the individual states doing? At what point did the establishment clause of the federal constitution, which limited the federal government, begin to apply to the states? I suspect that there is an argument that it did not until the 13th and 14th Amendments, and then not until much later when the doctrine of selective incorporation began to apply.

I respectfully believe that your approach makes the body politic completely static in theory, which it is not in reality. The civil war, for example, fundamentally changed the nature of the constitution and body politic beyond the mere text of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments, which were largely ignored in practice until the 20th century. But if you look at Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address, the spirit of the nature of the nation was reinterpreted, and as a matter of fact, it stuck as people, particualry in the North, adopted it’s interpretation. This despite the fact that it wasn’t law, but merely a speech (little noticed at the time, but long remembered.) The Gettysburg Address was aimed at our better angels, while the radical republicanism of the period was aimed at the consolidation of power, and it too had a surprisingly powerful effect.

I would like to put forth the argument, and maybe this thread is not appropriate, that the Constitution, brilliant, yet flawed, as it is, is not for most people a statement of the principles that this country was founded upon, and to which they look every day. Yes, most people know about some of the five rights in first amendment, and fewer know the preamble. Most people look for founding principles consciously or unconsciously to the Declaration of Independence and the Gettysburg Address for what this country stands for. These are fundamental principles that people agree in the abstract on. I do loving ending sentences in prepositions so.

So to get back to the point of the thread, do these constitute the establishment of this nation as a Christian nation? Certainly not in the sense that the Vatican is a Roman Catholic Christian nation, or that the United Kingdom has its head of state as the protector of the official faith. Certainly not as Saudi Arabia holds that the rulers are the direct descendants of the false prophet, etc.

Religion usually holds that it must be the central, and sometimes only, focus of the existence of the faithful. And while there are many salutary mentions of the Almighty by our founders in their writings, including the Declaration and Address, the constitution is curiously completely void of these except for the First Amendment and the no-test clause, and there to put forth rules only. But none of these folks have ever suggested for the slightest moment that the USofA was a religious endeavor even secondarily, and certainly not primarily in the way that you would expect devout people to do if it was their intention to enshrine their faith in their national institutions. There were substantial religious controversies at the time among the various denominations of protestantism (and for you purists, other non-Catholic denominations of Christianity), and there certainly was a Jewish community ;j in the USofA at that time, which was non-Christian in its entirety.

Fortunately, in the 21st century, we finally have a leadership in the executive branch that recognizes the inherent evil of atheism and actively discriminates against it in various public statements, and seems determined at long last, to make sure that there is some test of particular Christian faith for governmental positions and in particular for judgships. We cannot expect to continue to have the umbrella of God’s protection over our nation unless our government officials pass this test. As Reverands Falwell and Robertson publicly stated, it was the election of gay leaders like Rep Barney Frank that removed God’s protection on 9/11. Only by the removal of these kinds of sinners from office, by impeachment, by criminal prosecutions, hounding through the press and judicial action, and the eventual presence of properly faithful leaders can we be assured that God’s umbrella of protection will cover us.

–In fact, there are some tantalizing hints that Paine may have ghost-written the Declaration of Independence, but that because he was so much of a political hot potato he agreed not to take public credit.—

They are a little more than hints, and the charge is not ghost-writing, but (acceptable) plagarism on Jefferson’s part. The Dec is not a particularly original document in its form, because both Locke and Paine had written elements very similar to aspects of it, almost word for word, and Jefferson had most certainly read the works of both.

Indeed, people often forget that Paine’s Common Sense is probably far more important to the Revolution than the Declaration itself. That phamphlet is what truly inflamed the nation: the Declaration was simply the official statement.

Actually, I’ve seen articles which suggest that Paine actually wrote the Declaration. And the tantalizing hints to which I refer are not just in the document itself (which clearly incorporates Paine’s other writings), but in correspondence.

I’m going from memory now (I’ll try to dig up the article later), but I believe there is a letter from Paine to Washington(?), wherein Paine promises that Washington can rely on his discretion, and that he will not besmirch the “national honor.” The article suggested that Paine was promising not to reveal his authorship of the Declaration of Independence, which might cause scandal given Paine’s controversial religious views.

I’ll try to dig up more info.

And to be clear, I don’t buy into Paine’s authorship of the Declaration. It’s an interesting theory, but I don’t think there’s enough evidence to support it.

I seem to recall that Jefferson took credit for writing the Declaration on his tombstone as one of his great accomplishments, notably not taking credit for being President. While I think that he would have felt free to rely on works of Locke and Paine, and even consult with Paine, it is incredulous to suggest that Jefferson would take credit on his tombstone unless he was the major author and felt entitled to do so. I think he would have been embarrassed to have asked for such an epitath if it were not substantially true. This is the first I have heard that Paine had any part in writing the Declaration.

Eh. Like I said, I don’t buy the theory myself, but it is not without supporters and not without some evidence. Anyhow, the theory is out there (maybe in more ways than one).

I can’t find the article I referenced in my earlier post. However, I did find several internet references to the theory.

Apparently, it started with a book authored by Joseph Lewis, published in 1947, and entitled Thomas Paine, Author of the Declaration of Independence.

I found references to the theory here, here, and here.

—And to be clear, I don’t buy into Paine’s authorship of the Declaration. It’s an interesting theory, but I don’t think there’s enough evidence to support it.—

Whether Paine actually authored it or not, its hard to deny the similarities between the Dec of Indep, and some of Paine’s writings about how a new nation’s declaration should sound.

I am literally speechless.

I was just completely disgusted.

The possibility has been raised in another thread that taggert is engaging in an experimentally dry form of sarcastic satire. If that’s true, then I’ve been whooshed for the first time on this board. Of course taggert might be entirely serious, in which case he’s beyond hope in this or any other debate.

It begins that way, but it ends this way:

“Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names.”

Ah, I see now! They put the date in English instead of Latin! This proves we were founded as a Christian country!

Does this mean I’m proclaiming my Christianity every time I list a date as “A.D.”?

I thought y’all used C.E.

Hey, mebbe I’m behind the times. (get it? yuk yuk)

why wait for me to come back, read your post to specify the source.

one of the great things about the internet is being able to do research on-line to see who is bullsh!tting.

i just used google to search for:

+freemasons +“declaration of independence”

the site name contains “truthseekers” it is in the UK

the historian quoted is Manly P. Hall

actually i heard about this on the History Channel. if i can find it so easily next time i will just say use a search engine.

the lazy but impatient,

Dal Timgar

p.s. i wouldn’t have waited as long as you did for an answer, and i’m a jerk, i can get away with it on the internet.

There were several groups which migrated to this country in the beginning (pun not intended).

One group was the Puritans. They were a sect of Christianity that wasn’t liked by the majority of Christians, as they were very strict in their beliefs.

One group consisted of men of money - merchants and government people from various countries. They wanted to take advantage of the money making opportunities of the New World. Along with that group were men who were not the first sons of their families. They couldn’t get much of their familial wealth due to primogeniture laws, and there wasn’t much good that they could lay claim to in Britain and Western Europe. They could, however, acquire money and land in the New World without having to lose out to their eldest brothers.

The last group were the workers and indentured servants.

Nearly all of the first settlers came from Britain and Western Europe, which was the seat of Christianity and Catholicism. That they were Christian was a given; indeed, it could be treasonous to hold opposing religious belief to one’s state. There weren’t many ways to learn about outside religions, either, as books weren’t circulated about them.

Did they intend for the New World to be a Christian one? Some of them did; undoutedly, that was the plan of the Puritans. They wanted to make their great City on the Hill, where they could live pure lives and serve their god. Has anyone bothered to notice that their experiment didn’t work? That they broke their own laws again and again? That their way of living died out?

The merchants intended to make money for themselves and the countries they served. In the very beginning, they did not think of the New World as a separate entity from the countries they served. And they did make a hell of a lot of money.

What did the Founding Fathers want? I think that they wanted a more just state. They were men of philosophy; they had read some grand ideals. They wanted the voice of the masses to matter. They wanted to be able to perform whatever religious rituals they wanted in peace. They didn’t want to have to prescribe to a religion in order to be safe from the wrath of the king. They wanted a land in which they wouldn’t be taxed to death without being heard. And they were tired of being the cash cow of the British Empire.

But what people want and what they get can be two different things.