# was (are) zionism closely tied to facism and nazism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787 "2004-08-27T14:46:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/21 "2004-08-27T21:53:42Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But to use your reasoning about understanding Palestinian suicide bombings, this just puts things “in context”, and doesn’t really address the issue at hand. Those more knowledgeable about this subject than I have already done a good job debunking your thesis. He got spanked pretty hard in the **The Expulsion of the Palestinians in 1948** thread as well…his ‘facts’ were pretty laughable actually, and bare only a passing resemblence to reality (which he neatly explained away by a long drawn out screed about the Jewish myth machine…seeing is believing). In fact, I’m rather surprised to find him here, as he should be over THERE at least making some attempt to defend his embattled positions. -XT ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/22 "2004-08-27T22:52:50Z")
> [@](#): > > _by nonpolar_ > > How about Jews being the Chosen People? Not so fast, there. This thread is about Zionism, specifically Zionism in the current period. Not Judaism. Two very different things. Back to the OP: when Israel Shahak died in 2001, _The Guardian_ wrote a short obituary, of sorts. It can be found [here](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4216853,00.html). An excerpt: > [@](#): > > Shahak came to believe that these human rights incidents stemmed from Israel’s religious interpretation of Jewish history, which led it to ignore centuries of Arab life in the country, and to disregard non-Jewish rights. Confiscation, every schoolchild was told, was “the redemption of the land” from those who did not belong there. To Shahak, this was straightforward racism, damaging both sides. It was a minority view, but after the 1982 war, when the Israeli liberal sector grew, Shahak was able to put it forward in the reputable daily Ha’aretz. After retiring in 1991, he could also turn his ideas into books. ---
**Author:** ![Splanky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@Splanky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Splanky)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/23 "2004-08-27T23:10:05Z")
About the ‘88’ deal, the truth is that if these people really do have such sympathies, than they are cowards for hiding it. I think DonMartin is at least being fair and providing cites and at least having a civil debate about the issue. Just leave it at rest. About the whole chosen people thing, a) Jew =/ Zionist. Many, many Jews aren’t Zionists. This is a very big misconception. Hell, not all Zionists are Jews! b) The “chosen people” phrase is not supposed to identify superiority. I’ve never heard of Jewish Supremacists. And to even hint that Zionism or Judaism relate to Nazism in that way is total rubbish. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/24 "2004-08-27T23:33:57Z")
> [@TWOTfan](#): > > . According to that person (who had an 88 name), the 88 stood for Hitler/Himmler – “H” being the 8th letter in the alphabet. Actually, I believe it stands for “Heil Hitler”. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/25 "2004-08-28T01:31:49Z")
> [@Splanky](#): > > About the whole chosen people thing, a) Jew =/ Zionist. Many, many Jews aren’t Zionists. This is a very big misconception. Hell, not all Zionists are Jews! Okay, educate me here. Who are the gentile Zionists? Not disputing you, just that it’s a new one on me. ---
**Author:** ![Necro\_Romancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Necro\_Romancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necro_Romancer)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/26 "2004-08-28T01:58:40Z")
Any non Jew who supports a Jewish homeland in Palestine. You don’t know any? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/27 "2004-08-28T02:07:05Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Okay, educate me here. Who are the gentile Zionists? Not disputing you, just that it’s a new one on me. Many people in the American Religous Right support the idea of a Jewish homeland (albeit for reasons that jive with Revelations). So under the strict definition, they’re zionists. If you require I will furnish you with cites. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/28 "2004-08-28T02:10:47Z")
My understanding is that Zionists are those who unwaiveringly support the nation of Israel as a Jewish homeland. You don’t have to be a Jew to support that. > [@](#): > > **Splanky** : Just leave it at rest. It really isn’t kosher to tell others not to speak up about their concerns regarding possible Facist symbols in user names. I, for one, appreciate the reminder about the frequent use of “88.” We’ve seen it here over and over. * * * ~~In memory of The White Rose, Munich, 1943~~ ---
**Author:** ![TWOTfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TWOTfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWOTfan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/29 "2004-08-28T02:33:31Z")
clairobscur – I stand corrected: [88 names](http://www.tolerance.org/rthas/section4_1_2.jsp) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/30 "2004-08-28T02:37:54Z")
No offense meant to anybody: I am not a mod, but it strikes me that suggesting a poster is a neo-nazi troll is against the rules. Perhaps we should refrain from making further remarks upon his motivations or background? ---
**Author:** ![TWOTfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TWOTfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWOTfan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/31 "2004-08-28T02:41:16Z")
I’m not suggesting the OP is a Neo-nazi. I am stating as a fact that placing “88” after one’s name is often done by Neo-nazis. I also agree with an earlier poster that the ideas expressed in each post should be judged on their merits and not disparaged because of the (supposed) philosophy of the poster. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/32 "2004-08-28T02:46:56Z")
> [@TWOTfan](#): > > I’m not suggesting the OP is a Neo-nazi. I am stating as a fact that placing “88” after one’s name is often done by Neo-nazis. Yes, please pardon my 2.3 cents, I meant no offense to anybody, just seemd in my non-modly opinion that discussing possibile implications of his name should be be avoided. > [@TWOTfan](#): > > I also agree with an earlier poster that the ideas expressed in each post should be judged on their merits and not disparaged because of the (supposed) philosophy of the poster. I agree. However, in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=272967), our OP has made several claims, had them shot down, and kept on trucking without making much of an effort to debate, and hasn’t retracted spurious claims. Personally I don’t have high hopes for this thread, but I welcome the OP to come back and defend his position, or retract it. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/33 "2004-08-28T05:02:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Many people in the American Religous Right support the idea of a Jewish homeland (albeit for reasons that jive with Revelations). > So under the strict definition, they’re zionists. > If you require I will furnish you with cites. [I got ya.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist#Non-Jewish_Zionism) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/34 "2004-08-28T05:36:23Z")
> [@](#): > > I coose 88 bacause I’ve a fan of the 80’s (music, movies etc), and 1988 was in many ways my greatest year. It’s surprising none of us figured that out from all those threads you keep starting about the Traveling Wilburys. It’s obvious from your posts how you’re obsessed with 80’s pop music. But here’s a hint from a fellow U2 fan; if you keep posting threads about how Jews are bad and incorporate a well-known neo-nazi symbol into your screen name, some people are going to assume you’re a nazi. And then they’re going to laugh at you because being a nazi in 2004 is a pretty silly thing to be. And why hasn’t Paul Simon been able to make another album as good as _Graceland_? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/35 "2004-08-28T05:56:19Z")
I vote for seeing more posts on how cool Roy Orbison, Tom Petty, Bob Dylan, George Harrison, etc… were together, and fewer factually incorrect posts demonizing Israel, Jews, and Zionism. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/36 "2004-08-28T12:57:53Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > And why hasn’t Paul Simon been able to make another album as good as _Graceland_? Yuk! (there’s never a vomiting smilie when you need one!) Anyway, maybe the Dope should prevent people from choosing “88” names, or at least have a warning on the signup page about how they’re likely to be interpreted (It was the first thing that caught my eye when I saw the OP in the other thread). This isn’t the first, and won’t be the last time this comes up ---
**Author:** ![DonMartin88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DonMartin88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DonMartin88)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/37 "2004-08-28T15:36:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > There may be many such links, but you have not provided any of them. Certainly these three quotations do nothing to support that contention. > Jabotinsky’s remarks could have been made by any number of people on the Left or the Right, classic Liberals, Conservatives, socialists, capialists, progressives, or any other group 100 years ago. The concepts of race and of blood were simply accepted by the overwhelming majority of people in European and European-colonized countries. It was a regular issue of discussion among scientists. (Check out the early chapters of Gould’s The Mismeasure of Man. Even people who disagree with Gould’s politics or later conclusions have to acknowledge that his depiction of nineteenth and early twentieth century science (especially among the ethnologists) is accurate.) It would be extraordinary to find someone writing in 1904 who did not believe that race and blood determined most people’s lives. > > The Bialik quotation is so cryptic as to be meaningless. Bialik was a poet, not a politician. Was his quotation a repitition of the idea expressed in Jabotinsky’s quote, (an idea which had hardly become outdated in merely 30 years)? Or was it part of a larger text that agreed with small points that Hitler had made, the better to distance itself from the greater claims made by Hitler? This quotation tells us nothing. > > Eichmann was running from the Israelis and trying to rationalize his actions against the Jews. His statement is purely self-serving nonsense in which he attempts to portray himself as being like one of the people he persecuted. > > So, where are all these “many links”? this is written by Gilad Atzmon, he’s not a historican, but his writings is worth reading > [@](#): > > When Zionism was born it was more than a legitimate ideological philosophy. > It was part of the nineteenth-century European nationalistic movement and > developed at a time when hatred of the Other was more than common within > European intellectual and political discourse. Revisionist Zionists led by > Vladimir Jabotinsky openly praised Italian fascism and regarded Mussolini as > their ideological mentor. Further, Jabotinsky adopted the idea of racial > purity many years before Hitler even mentioned it. At the time, Zionism wasn > 't the only philosophy to push for a nationalistic state based on racial > purity. After World War II and the fall of Nazism, however, things changed. > The idea of a state based on racial purity was no longer legitimate. > > Nationalistic Jewish aspirations started to appear in the late nineteenth > century following the emancipation of European Jews. Zionist ideologists > followed the growing wave of European nationalism. Early Zionists regarded > the possibility of Jewish assimilation as a grave threat to Jewish > existence. Many of those thinkers also agreed that Jewish people suffered > from severe social malfunctioning, referring to traditional Jewish > occupations as non-productive. The Zionist assumption at the time was that > this form of unhealthy social condition was a result of living in a ghetto > in a foreign land for too long. Zionism was regarded as a remedy for the > many different ‘traditional Jewish sicknesses’. It aimed to create a new > Jew: a secular, civilized and productive man that lives and cultivates his > own land while communicating in his own language (Hebrew), very much the > opposite of the eastern European ghetto character. This experiment proved to > be very short-lived. In practice, that ‘new Jew’ has never been created. > Zionism has never been a secular movement. While secularity is an > alternative philosophy to religion, when it comes to Zionism and Jewish > secularity, Zionism rejects some Jewish rituals only to then adopt new ones. > \>From the very beginning Zionism adopted many biblical and mystical heroic > Jewish symbols, mostly suicidal ones (the stories of Massada, a tale of > collective kamikaze, and Samson, the first Jewish suicide bomber, are > typical examples). Moreover, the decision to resurrect the Jewish state in > Palestine related directly to the biblical promise. Although in the > beginning it looked as if a real effort to establish a Hebraic civilization > was being made, every visitor to Israel nowadays would agree that most > Hebraic cultural aspects are vanishing from the collapsing Israeli culture. > Even the Hebrew is getting minced by the day. Needless to say, soon after > their arrival, the Zionists found that it was far easier to use Palestinian > labor than to get burned themselves in the open Mediterranean fields. In > retrospect, it would be hard to point out any major cultural Hebraic rebirth > except of some barbarian habits that naturally developed during many decades > of sadistic oppression. [http://www.gilad.co.uk/mistakes.html](http://www.gilad.co.uk/mistakes.html) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/38 "2004-08-28T17:21:00Z")
**DonMartin88** : this is ridiculous. For the love of Og will you please stop responding with nary an original thought and without any proof? Stop quoting huge blocks of text! As others have pointed out, a belief in ‘race’ was hardly unique to Germany, and hardly unique to Nazism, and hardly a call for genocide. And even with your style of debate, you’ve not given one iota of proof for the idea that zionism has anything more than a belief in ‘race’ with Nazism. And hell, that belief was abandoned! But it occurs to me that I probably shouldn’t be responding to you. So until you can actually debate, put forward your own ideas with proof behind them, respond to specific points with specific counters, etc… I don’t know why you are attempting to stir up anti Zionist-Jewish-Israeli passions with your unsubstantiated and secondary-source-based ‘debating’ tactics, but I feel like a fool for giving you any legitimacy. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/39 "2004-08-28T20:17:36Z")
Heck, in the ideological hailstorm that was swirling through Europe 1875-1925, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if factions occasionally slightly overlapped, even if they eventually evolved into structures that (sometimes violently) opposed each other. Whatever tenuous ties zionism may have once had to fascism, I’ll be the OP can’t cite a good example less than 75 years old. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787/40 "2004-08-28T20:55:45Z")
> [@DonMartin88](#): > > ther are many links between zionism and nazism > [The Ten Most Common Mistakes of the Israeli People](http://www.serendipity.li/zionism/atzmon.htm) **DonMartin88,** you do not add to the credibility to your argument by linking to a site that seems to focus on insane conspiracy theories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-are-zionism-closely-tied-to-facism-and-nazism/261787.md?page=3)