# Was Atlantis once a continent, or just an “unusual” once-upon-a-time…Myth? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 15, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899 "2015-01-15T15:51:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/61 "2015-01-15T23:28:07Z")
> [@Watchtower](#): > > Why do some people, even highly educated ones, consider as entirely plausible that Plato told us true? Please name one, and explain how his education has prepared him to expound on the _literal_ truth of what Plato said. This would be one of the citations people request when they say, “Cite?” ---
**Author:** ![Watchtower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/67e7ee/32.png) [@Watchtower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Watchtower)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/62 "2015-01-15T23:29:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Of course who told of Atlantis and why the story was told matters as to whether we should take the story seriously! > BTW, why does it matter what “newspapermen” think about this? What special insight do they have on this? Ask Cecil, he is a newspaper man, he started this site, and he claims to be very smart, to boot. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/63 "2015-01-15T23:32:56Z")
> [@Watchtower](#): > > Thanks to both Green Bean and you. I will use the words that evaded me from GB and join them with yours, add mine, and then I think it is pretty close to what I meant as far a “lure” in OP. > > Therefore: Why do some people, even highly educated ones, consider as entirely plausible that Plato told us true? Have these people read what little there is of the story of Atlantis, in context? And I add: Does anyone notice all the apparent inconsistencies in the details of the topological descriptions given by Plato? Why would a man so obsessed with truth, be wanting to, intentionally, make us believe that what looks, walks, and quacks like a myth is a true story? The answer to this is you have to put the story in the context of who and what Plato was, and what he was intending the story to do, which was to teach a lesson to his students. Sort of like the parables of Jesus…or Mohammad for that matter…they are stories designed to teach the student something and only vaguely (or not at all) resembling real events or history. I’m pretty sure Plato did know about things like Thera, and my own theory is he used that and other stories of lost cities to wrap his own message around. The key though is not the story of Atlantis, but what it teaches his intended audience. I think you (and others, sometimes very bright others) are trying to focus on this as a history lesson, which totally misses the point. So, since you want a vote, it’s a parable, a story intended to teach various lessons that has turned into a myth as people have told and retold and lost sight of the original point of the whole exercise. ---
**Author:** ![Watchtower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/67e7ee/32.png) [@Watchtower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Watchtower)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/64 "2015-01-15T23:41:02Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > To speak of it as fact is nonsense. There is basically one flood mythos, which was repeated seriatum by several others, adapted to local conditions and features each time. > > Whatever fragment of history Plato may have been inspired by, the fact is that “Atlantis” stems from brief, allegorical mentions in a context very different from a historical accounting of a vanished supercivilization. EVERYTHING ELSE is an invented addition, most of it dating from the 19th century or so. Just wait! Read the initial portion of the Timaeus, and that ancient Egyptian priest will set you right, just as he did Solon, who had the same belief; One flood only. And if the priest convinced Solon, one of the wisest man know to have existed on the “face” of the earth, “flat or not,” you will be just a pushover for him. ---
**Author:** ![Watchtower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/67e7ee/32.png) [@Watchtower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Watchtower)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/65 "2015-01-16T00:04:44Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Um…you _do_ realize that Plato was a philosopher, not an historian, right? Read what he says of Atlantis, in context, and it’s astoundingly clear he was using allegory to make a philosophical point. Boy do I realize that he is a philosopher! Not an historian, you say? I wonder! You say it’s astoundingly clear he was using allegory? Well that, perhaps, is the point. Are you perchance a philosopher? If it is so very clear to you, you must. But don’t ask all those other philosophers that disagree; some say that Plato is other than clear. Some say that there is a hidden teaching within his works. Without the key it’s hard to decipher. That is what many experts say. Anyway, your observation, if clearly true, then why all the lure, still? Especially in modern times, with all the tech we have to discount possibilities that others before could not; like deep ocean scanning of the bottom of the Atlantic, or anywhere else it has been said to have gone down. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/66 "2015-01-16T00:05:12Z")
> [@Watchtower](#): > > Ask Cecil, he is a newspaper man, he started this site, and he claims to be very smart, to boot. When asked about it [Cecil wrote:](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1089/is-the-lost-city-of-atlantis-at-the-bottom-of-a-lake-in-north-dakota) > [@](#): > > Plato made the whole thing up, the weasel. Plato of course is the guy who related the Atlantis legend circa 348 BC in two of his dialogues, Timaeus and Critias. The entire account covers maybe 20 pages of printed text. A character in the dialogues says the legend had been told 200 years previously to the Athenian statesman Solon by an Egyptian sage. > But no independent account of Atlantis exists in Greek or Egyptian literature or anywhere else. Modern efforts to equate Atlantis with well-established myths about Elysium, the land of fallen heroes, etc., are speculative BS. The common view among scholars is that Plato manufactured the story to support his theories about the ideal state, appeal to Greek patriotism (in his story the Greeks defeated the Atlanteans), etc. Got that? It was a _story_, and a _character_ in the _story_ said the legend had been told two hundred years earlier by Solon to an _unnamed_ Egyptian sage. Basically, your provinance for this tale rests on 200 year old hearsay from a fictional character. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/67 "2015-01-16T00:08:17Z")
> [@Watchtower](#): > > But don’t ask all those other philosophers that disagree; some say that Plato is other than clear. Some say that there is a hidden teaching within his works. Without the key it’s hard to decipher. That is what many experts say. I’m very interested in reading what these people have to say. Please share. > [@](#): > > Anyway, your observation, if clearly true, then why all the lure, still? Especially in modern times, with all the tech we have to discount possibilities that others before could not; like deep ocean scanning of the bottom of the Atlantic, or anywhere else it has been said to have gone down. Several reasonable explanations have been provided in this thread so far. I’m sorry you do not find them compelling. May I ask why that is? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/68 "2015-01-16T00:08:44Z")
> [@Watchtower](#): > > Boy do I realize that he is a philosopher! Not an historian, you say? I wonder! You say it’s astoundingly clear he was using allegory? Well that, perhaps, is the point. Are you perchance a philosopher? If it is so very clear to you, you must. But don’t ask all those other philosophers that disagree; some say that Plato is other than clear. Some say that there is a hidden teaching within his works. Without the key it’s hard to decipher. That is what many experts say. Anyway, your observation, if clearly true, then why all the lure, still? Especially in modern times, with all the tech we have to discount possibilities that others before could not; like deep ocean scanning of the bottom of the Atlantic, or anywhere else it has been said to have gone down. _What_ “many experts”? If you want to refer to so-called “experts” when it comes to backing up something you have to say, would you mind doing a little less hysterical hand waving and a little more naming of names? Who are these “experts”, and what are they experts _of_? ---
**Author:** ![Watchtower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/67e7ee/32.png) [@Watchtower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Watchtower)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/69 "2015-01-16T00:23:49Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Please name one, and explain how his education has prepared him to expound on the _literal_ truth of what Plato said. This would be one of the citations people request when they say, “Cite?” No comments required. For now, it’s not about me and any proof that I’m to bring; I have not cast my vote, nor passed judgement on anyone contrary to my opinion; and I wont either. A quick search on the net, on your part, will suffice to curb your appetite. I made it clear in one or more posts that I just “raised my hand” and asked the questions. If the teacher(s) do not know, what makes you think I know? Anyway are you disputing that there are not, or have not, been anyone of a certain intelligence that has retained the story of Atlantis plausible? And then you want me to justify the credential of these intellectuals? You got be kidding me? If I had those credential myself, and I would need them to make the assessment you want me to make, would I be here passing my time with you? And for free, to boot? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/70 "2015-01-16T00:41:14Z")
> [@Watchtower](#): > > No comments required. For now, it’s not about me and any proof that I’m to bring; I have not cast my vote, nor passed judgement on anyone contrary to my opinion; and I wont either. A quick search on the net, on your part, will suffice to curb your appetite. I made it clear in one or more posts that I just “raised my hand” and asked the questions. If the teacher(s) do not know, what makes you think I know? Anyway are you disputing that there are not, or have not, been anyone of a certain intelligence that has retained the story of Atlantis plausible? And then you want me to justify the credential of these intellectuals? You got be kidding me? If I had those credential myself, and I would need them to make the assessment you want me to make, would I be here passing my time with you? And for free, to boot? Useless. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/71 "2015-01-16T00:46:41Z")
> [@Watchtower](#): > > Therefore: Why do some people, even highly educated ones, consider as entirely plausible that Plato told us true? Have these people read what little there is of the story of Atlantis, in context? And I add: Does anyone notice all the apparent inconsistencies in the details of the topological descriptions given by Plato? Why would a man so obsessed with truth, be wanting to, intentionally, make us believe that what looks, walks, and quacks like a myth is a true story? I think you need to give us something more solid to go on. It’s like asking “Why do some people vote for Democrats?” Well, tell us who _some people_ are, and then maybe we can tell you, but don’t expect that there’s going to be a universal for all of the people who vote for Democrats. Otherwise, it’s just a giant list of what-ifs for why some hypothetical person might do that. But I will offer two simple observations: 1. Headlines: if you discover the lost site of Podunk, Sumeria, no one cares. Merely searching for Atlantis is enough to get you in the news. 2. Mental illness: Sanity and intelligence are independent variables. There are people who are both smart and crazy. To your second question: You mention Plato being obsessed with truth, but Plato was also the one to talk about shadows in caves and Platonic ideals. Plato was very aware that there was “truth” as an imperfect everyday incarnation of an idea and there was “TRUTH” as the underlying idea behind it. I can draw a “circle” to communicate the idea of “CIRCLE” to you, but nothing I draw will ever be a perfect circle. Atlantis is put forward as “truth” which is merely an allegory for “TRUTH” which is his point about society, government, Greek superiority, etc. I don’t think Plato expected that his readers would have trouble distinguishing the two categories of truth. ---
**Author:** ![Watchtower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/67e7ee/32.png) [@Watchtower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Watchtower)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/72 "2015-01-16T00:49:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When asked about it [Cecil wrote:](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1089/is-the-lost-city-of-atlantis-at-the-bottom-of-a-lake-in-north-dakota)Got that? It was a _story_, and a _character_ in the _story_ said the legend had been told two hundred years earlier by Solon to an _unnamed_ Egyptian sage. Basically, your provinance for this tale rests on 200 year old hearsay from a fictional character. Shit!!! I gave away the clue to soon. I did not think you would take me up on my recommendation. Gosh darn it. You must be one of those here fighting ignorance the old fashion way; you take others opinions too seriously. And don’t forget, never kiss a gift horse in the mouth. You are standing on Atlantis right now, if you happen to be, right now, in the good old US of A. Home to batman and superman, two of our real heroes. They sure make certain that our Republic, as in Plato’s Republic, is home to justice, liberty, and the place to pursue happiness. And if Cecil is so darn smart and knows it all, why is he not one guarding our Republic, as he should? ---
**Author:** ![Watchtower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/67e7ee/32.png) [@Watchtower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Watchtower)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/73 "2015-01-16T00:57:19Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > I think you need to give us something more solid to go on. It’s like asking “Why do some people vote for Democrats?” Well, tell us who _some people_ are, and then maybe we can tell you, but don’t expect that there’s going to be a universal for all of the people who vote for Democrats. Otherwise, it’s just a giant list of what-ifs for why some hypothetical person might do that. > > But I will offer two simple observations: > > 1. Headlines: if you discover the lost site of Podunk, Sumeria, no one cares. Merely searching for Atlantis is enough to get you in the news. > 2. Mental illness: Sanity and intelligence are independent variables. There are people who are both smart and crazy. > > To your second question: You mention Plato being obsessed with truth, but Plato was also the one to talk about shadows in caves and Platonic ideals. Plato was very aware that there was “truth” as an imperfect everyday incarnation of an idea and there was “TRUTH” as the underlying idea behind it. I can draw a “circle” to communicate the idea of “CIRCLE” to you, but nothing I draw will ever be a perfect circle. > > Atlantis is put forward as “truth” which is merely an allegory for “TRUTH” which is his point about society, government, Greek superiority, etc. I don’t think Plato expected that his readers would have trouble distinguishing the two categories of truth. Hey! Stop with the circles already, as you are the one going round. The game is over; Czarcasm gets the tootsie roll. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/74 "2015-01-16T01:48:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you are just interested as to why the tale of Atlantis is fascinates people and cause them to make up stories about it, then you might want to ask a moderator to move this to a different forum. Suggest any good ones? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/75 "2015-01-16T02:31:05Z")
> [@Watchtower](#): > > Hey, I did not want to be taken apart, just wanted to know how some of you feel about it. And I was not meaning to do a lot of work here, as I clearly was wanting help. Please look it up for me, will you? If you were just looking for opinions, IMHO would have been a better forum choice that the debating forum. Had you been looking for straight up facts, you should have gone to General Questions. At this point, I think that IMHO will be a better fit. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![stui\_magpie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stui_magpie/32/11010_2.png) [@stui\_magpie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stui_magpie)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/76 "2015-01-16T02:44:03Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Well, you’re the one that appears to have the extreme claim that Atlantis was real, you’re going to have to bring far more substantial evidence than “people like the myth”. > > Otherwise, by that standard, Batman is real. Of course Batman is real, he founded the city of [Melbourne](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_of_Melbourne). ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/77 "2015-01-16T02:44:23Z")
Gotta admit, Czarcasm, you’re sounding a tad aggressive. Please rein that in a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/78 "2015-01-16T02:47:22Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Gotta admit, Czarcasm, you’re sounding a tad aggressive. Please rein that in a bit. Now that we’re in this forum, no problem. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/79 "2015-01-16T02:48:40Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Much of mythology is allegorical, but this does not mean it is not founded on historical events. > > For example, the Homerian city of Troy was long considered mythological. [Until some dude discovered the ruins.](http://www.ancientgreece.com/s/Troy/) But we generally draw the line somewhere rather short of “…Thus Aphrodite and Ares were real,” and even short of “…thus Achilles was real.” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899/80 "2015-01-16T03:01:22Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But we generally draw the line somewhere rather short of “…Thus Aphrodite and Ares were real,” and even short of “…thus Achilles was real.” Hold on! First Batman, now you are implying that Aphrodite, Ares AND Achilles might not be real?? But…but I freaking saw the movie! :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-atlantis-once-a-continent-or-just-an-unusual-once-upon-a-time-myth/709899.md?page=5)