# Was backgammon ever seen as sophisticated? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 29, 2020, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847 "2020-09-29T23:32:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/1 "2020-09-29T23:32:58Z")
My father owned a fancy wooden backgammon set, and taught me how to play at a young age. There is a degree of skill in avoiding, or when to risk leaving, vulnerable single pieces. (I’m sure enthusiasts have a complex vernacular and use different terms). But it is largely a game of luck - you do a lot better with good dice rolls. I vaguely recall being informed some casinos offered backgammon - and online exposure increased the popularity of this game, which must be close to 5000 years old. Indeed, it was pivotal in a court case that successfully argued it was not “gambling” since nothing was hidden from view. This, it was said to be a “game of skill”. Perhaps this influenced its purported popularity. No doubt it was the toast of Sumeria. But was backgammon ever seen in modern times as a classy pursuit? I’ve heard there were two separate world championships. Any repeat winners? From my very limited play I would say it is 75% luck, 25% skill once you know the basics. Is this ratio right? It seems you could lose a series of games very easily even if “professional”. And that games take too long to play for casinos to bother, unless bets are big? ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/2 "2020-09-30T00:11:16Z")
1. There’s a lot more skill to it than you think. I dipped my toes into the world of backgammon strategy last year — I was playing online and getting my ass kicked — and quickly realized it would be at least as much work as learning how to play blackjack or poker effectively… i.e., too much for my poor little brain, sorry to all the engineers out there who think it’s easy. I mean, look at all [this writing](https://www.bkgm.com/articles/page02.html#basic_strategy) on backgammon strategy — just from one janky little website. 2. While good/lucky rolls can make or break a single game, over multiple games luck will even out. Having played against some much better players online, I realized that while they _seemed_ luckier than me, they had strategically laid out their pieces to maximize chances of getting good rolls. Created their own luck, in other words. So I think you might want to rethink that 75/25 ratio. Seems to me that the skill/luck ratio should vary depending on the skill differential between players — which I hope you agree can be quite large. I’d say that with evenly matched players, luck is basically 100% of the game’s outcome, but a master will rarely lose to a novice. (The fact that luck remains a factor — however small — is one of the reasons I like backgammon more than chess. A little chaos that occasionally helps the underdog pull it off.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/3 "2020-09-30T00:46:20Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > No doubt it was the toast of Sumeria. But was backgammon ever seen in modern times as a classy pursuit? All I know is, the writers needed Commander James Bond to gamble against an Afghan prince for the ownership of a Fabergé egg, and the classiest thing they could come up with was [backgammon](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tBz2GIxfYXA). ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/4 "2020-09-30T00:54:07Z")
That’s probably why I’m under the impression it is a sophisticated game. 1. Do casinos still treat it as a sophisticated game? 2. If a “good” player was up against a “world class” player, both with years of experience, what might the ratio of luck and skill be? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/5 "2020-09-30T01:17:48Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Do casinos still treat it as a sophisticated game? I just spent a few minutes on the web sites of some of the big Vegas casinos (Caesar’s Palace, Bellagio, MGM Grand); none of them offer backgammon as one of their table games. I wonder if part of it is that it’s a longer game, compared to other games that are played at casinos today, as well as the fact that it’s a one-on-one game – at a casino, each “dealer” could only play against one player at a time. It might well be that some casinos host backgammon tournaments, however. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/6 "2020-09-30T01:27:04Z")
I found [this article from a casino blog](http://www.casinob.com/casino-blog/casino/is-backgammon-a-casino-game/), which seems to support my WAG about backgammon at casinos: > [@](#): > > On the other hand, you’re not likely to see backgammon hit Atlantic City or Vegas as quickly as it’s hit some online casinos, because there’s no place for a dealer. Moreover, a single game takes a long time and can only accommodate two players. As a result, it is not profitable for land-based casinos to host backgammon on a regular basis. Some host backgammon tournaments once or twice a year, but it is rare to find a casino that hosts regular backgammon games. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/7 "2020-09-30T01:59:51Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > 75% luck, 25% skill I play a smart phone app of the game and at its top level I win about 60%. I should win 50% if I’m good and the app is good and it all comes down to luck. I think the app is a bit flawed, but I’ve played people who have a very different approach to the game so maybe it’s like karate vs boxing or whatever. It’s a probability game. It’s simpler than “If I draw one card I might get three of a kind…but if I discard two I could get a straight, but my opponent may have a flush, so let’s see…the odds vs. the payoff?” but it’s probability. To the OP’s question, it’s interesting to me that backgammon was often the backside of a checkerboard. I don’t mean to denigrate it because that same checkerboard works for chess. FWIW Mrs. L says backgammon isn’t hoidy-toidy. I’ll rate it as medium on that ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/8 "2020-09-30T02:23:46Z")
This guy, who comes across as knowledgeable (given the nothing I know), says in a bunch of games top players might lose to much worse players in the 5-15% range. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/9 "2020-09-30T04:27:14Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > I don’t mean to denigrate it because that same checkerboard works for chess. That’s because checkers/draughts is played on a chessboard. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/10 "2020-09-30T11:51:57Z")
I just watched “My Man Godfrey” (the 1936 version) - the very wealthy Bullock family is playing backgammon at one point. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/11 "2020-09-30T13:47:01Z")
Backgammon had a large surge in popularity in the US during the mid/late 70s that faded by the mid 80s. I was in college when it started and _everybody_ had a backgammon set and played often. High class as in Bond & Blofeldt? Maybe not. The “in” thing to do? You bet. And, like chess, its timeless ancient nature added a certain internationalist cachet; you weren’t playing the latest made-up fad from Milton Bradley; this was real. My roommate and I played a lot. He won most of them which was frustrating for me. Admittedly I played by feel; I knew the strategic concepts qualitatively but didn’t explicitly compute anything while playing. As an experiment we started writing down the dice rolls as they occurred, then replayed the same sequence of rolls off the paper a couple weeks later but with the players reversed. We waited long enough that neither of us had any memory of that particular game. Like I said, we played lots. He still beat me on the replays at about the same rate. Every one of which was provably me playing his rolls and he playing mine. IOW, it’s provably a game of skill with some luck injected. As to casinos: I lived in Las Vegas for 20 years, basically the 80s & 90s. Never heard of backgammon as a casino game. It was no more available than was Tiddlywinks or indoor blimp racing. Online today I have no clue. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/12 "2020-09-30T15:05:31Z")
Wiki says it has a surge of popularity in the early 2000s. I presume that has faded - missed recent pop culture references. The above site I quoted implies any player can beat an expert with good rolls and even sometimes over 3 or 5 games - over a longer haul an expert will win say nine times out ten. That’s enough to make it hard to win multiple tournaments; you wouldn’t beat a poker expert one time out of ten over multiple games (unless you stick to one casino; there is an apparent poker scandal discussed at length on _longreads_). However, because of that tournaments are more popular than things which are more skillful like poker or chess. Gamblers must take a much longer view, if gammon was gambling. Or so I’ve read. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/13 "2020-09-30T18:24:48Z")
Are folk denigrating checkers? I’m not expert, but ISTR reading that checkers involves considerable skill. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/14 "2020-09-30T21:00:31Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > The above site I quoted implies any player can beat an expert with good rolls and even sometimes over 3 or 5 games - over a longer haul an expert will win say nine times out ten. **The Difference is the Cube** I’m not sure an expert would win 9 out of 10 separate, unrelated games. Maybe 8 of 10. But an expert probably wouldn’t waste time playing single games because… It’s possible that any given player could beat an expert _at one game_. But competitive backgammon is played in several-point _matches_ with a betting cube and it is because of the understanding of how to turn the cube that experts beat lesser players. Sometimes an expert may agree to a single game but it would likely be a “money game” meaning that the cube would be in use as a multiplier of the stakes of the single game. Since a beginner or intermediate player has lesser cube skills than an expert, the latter will generally dominate a money game. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/15 "2020-09-30T21:04:02Z")
I’ve seen the cube and I understand how it works in principle but what are some of the strategies? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/16 "2020-09-30T21:10:39Z")
i removed this post because i posted it before i had finished it… i’ll put it back up in a bit. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/17 "2020-09-30T21:31:34Z")
A lot of brinksmanship and constant careful calculations of the [expectation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value). I haven’t played serious backgammon in a long time and I was never very good (in competitive competition) partly because I couldn’t learn the cube as well as one needs to. I’m afraid that means I’m unable to explain much about the subtleties of cube play. I just know it’s pretty deep. I’m of the opinion that backgammon, like poker, is a “gambling game.” By which I mean that IMO, the games can not be played seriously at a medium-to-high-level without a meaningful amount of money being at stake. A couple things about the [cube](https://peter-hung.com/2019/12/backgammon-beautiful/): > The doubling cube exists. Backgammon was played with just the dice, board, and checkers for many millennia, but in the 1920s ,some New Yorkers introduced the **most difficult aspect of the modern game** : the doubling cube. **Proper play requires you to precisely valuate the game state on every single turn.** Proper play requires emotional discipline: the courage to “take” games when a single roll could virtually guarantee losing 4 points or the humility to “drop” games which slip away after unlucky rolls. And the cube magnifies the effect of all of the above, making quality backgammon difficult to play. [Bolding mine] [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backgammon_match_strategy) discusses cube use and strategy here but it doesn’t go that deep. (It also mentions other match play rules like the Crawford Rule). > Players generally attempt to double at the “top of the market”, i.e. as close as possible to the opponent’s theoretical take point. If a player offers a double and the opponent correctly drops, the player is said to have “lost his market” or “doubled someone out”. If both the double and the take are correct, the player has “kept his market” or “doubled someone in”. [And](http://www.gamesprecipice.com/doublingcube/) > You can’t control the outcome of a roll of dice but you can control when to offer to double or whether to accept. The cube allows strategically sound usage of the doubling offer to all but eliminate the potential of losing after gaining a significant lead. Does your opponent really want to double the value of the game when you’re sitting with a 80% likelihood of winning? If they take the offer, celebrate as you’ll come out way ahead in the long-term. If they decline the offer, you just turned a 80% likelihood into 100% victory. Strategic use of the doubling cube puts control into the hands of players, rather than fate of the dice. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/18 "2020-09-30T21:52:28Z")
Maybe I wasn’t clear. I thought I’d posted the link. Sorry. > **[Luck vs. Skill in Backgammon](https://bkgm.com/articles/Simborg/LuckVsSkill/index.html)** > > Backgammon is a game of skill, and the more skill you have, the more likely you are to win. But backgammon is also a game of luck. Skill is a factor, but luck is important. No one would be surprised if a lucky intermediate player beat someone at the “world class” level. The more games played, the greater the chance the expert will win more games. Playing 3-5 games, the expert could still lose _the whole series_ to a lucky amateur, quite easily. Playing a long series of games, “an eleven point match”, the expert would win the _series_ 85-95%. But I’m sure you are right about the doubling. Again, as the players approach similar level luck becomes more important. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/19 "2020-09-30T22:04:03Z")
I was a backgammon junkie when I was a kid. (younger than 10) carried that “briefcase” with me everywhere I went at one point. So if a child that young can play it, I don’t think it quite rises to the level of Chess or Go. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847/20 "2020-09-30T22:04:35Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Maybe I wasn’t clear. I thought I’d posted the link. Sorry. I didn’t see that. Sorry. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-backgammon-ever-seen-as-sophisticated/921847.md?page=2)