# was Beethoven actually a black man **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 17, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950 "2014-06-17T00:37:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![thanatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@thanatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thanatic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/1 "2014-06-17T00:37:26Z")
there is a theory out there that beethoven might of been a black man/ or at least african ancestry from his father’s side he was half-german, half-flemish… we don’t know any info on his mother’ ethnicity, but a theory she was a moor beethoven was actually called a moor and “swarthy or ruddy” complexion ---
**Author:** ![thanatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@thanatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thanatic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/2 "2014-06-17T00:38:31Z")
im not saying that he was full black or anything, but is their a possibility he was half-african? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/3 "2014-06-17T00:46:28Z")
> [@thanatic](#): > > there is a theory out there that beethoven might of been a black man/ or at least african ancestry > > from his father’s side he was half-german, half-flemish… we don’t know any info on his mother’ ethnicity, but a theory she was a moor > beethoven was actually called a moor and “swarthy or ruddy” complexion That theory is certainly “out there”. Can you provide any cites for this speculation? ---
**Author:** ![thanatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@thanatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thanatic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/4 "2014-06-17T00:47:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That theory is certainly “out there”. Can you provide any cites for this speculation? that he is half flemish, which was controlled by the moors for 200 years ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/5 "2014-06-17T00:51:28Z")
[His mother-Maria Magdalena Keverich Beethoven.](http://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/guides/maria-magdalena-beethoven-mother/) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/6 "2014-06-17T00:54:12Z")
> [@thanatic](#): > > that he is half flemish, which was controlled by the moors for 200 years Flanders was controlled by the Moors for 200 years? Do you know where Flanders is? (Hint: [Flanders - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanders)) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/7 "2014-06-17T01:22:26Z")
The Straight Dope: [Was Ludwig van Beethoven of African ancestry?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2598/was-ludwig-van-beethoven-of-african-ancestry) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/8 "2014-06-17T01:25:59Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Flanders was controlled by the Moors for 200 years? Do you know where Flanders is? (Hint: [Flanders - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanders)) From the linked column: [QUOTE=Cecil Adams] Rogers’ evidence for the composer’s blackness, presented in the third volume of _Sex and Race_, is twofold: (1) Some of Beethoven’s ancestors lived in Belgium; Belgium had long been controlled by Spain; Spain employed some full-blooded Negro troops and in addition had been overrun by the Moors in medieval times; the Moors, according to Rogers, were a hybrid of white and black African stock; ergo, over the span of 1,000 years, black ancestry could conceivably have been transmitted from Africa to Beethoven. (2) Beethoven had a darker complexion than was typical of northern Europeans of his day, and some referred to him as “the black Spaniard.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/9 "2014-06-17T01:37:54Z")
That the Moors conquered Spain, and later Hapsburg Spain inherited the Netherlands is true, but that doesn’t mean the Moors ruled Flanders. The Moors never controlled Flanders, that’s as ridiculous as saying that the Iroquois defeated the Nazis because the Iroquois lived in New York, which is part of the United States, and the United States fought Germany in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/10 "2014-06-17T01:50:31Z")
She was a Moop. Common mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/11 "2014-06-17T01:54:32Z")
Okay, we’ll give you Beethoven. But we’re taking Chuck Berry, Ray Charles, and a rapper to be named later. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/12 "2014-06-17T02:12:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Okay, we’ll give you Beethoven. But we’re taking Chuck Berry, Ray Charles, and a rapper to be named later. [Konichiwa, bitches.](http://vimeo.com/61499874) ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/13 "2014-06-17T03:21:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [His mother-Maria Magdalena Keverich Beethoven.](http://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/guides/maria-magdalena-beethoven-mother/) Yeep. She is definitely not more-ish. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/14 "2014-06-17T03:32:24Z")
This was mentioned in a [Peanuts](http://blackdutch1.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=186645488) strip years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/15 "2014-06-17T23:16:40Z")
Besides, while Beethoven was Flemish, his mother wasn’t. His mother was a Rheinlander, the daughter of the chief cook to the Archbishop of Trier. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/16 "2014-06-18T00:23:58Z")
From the article: > [@](#): > > It is this, no doubt, that led her future father-in-law to **denigrate** her as a chambermaid. The rumours started quickly :eek: ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/17 "2014-06-18T00:47:43Z")
It seems to me, the “dark complection” description that starts a lot of these stories means anything less than fluorescent skin. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/18 "2014-06-18T02:56:32Z")
OP, you haven’t been reading the collected works of [this fellow](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Egmond_Codfried), have you? If so, I urge you to run away. Quickly. Not from here; from him. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/19 "2014-06-18T03:11:49Z")
was Beethoven actually a black man that’s just jive talk. you are looking at old dirty paintings. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950/20 "2014-06-18T03:12:10Z")
I thought we had already established that blue blood is black blood, hadn’t we? 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-beethoven-actually-a-black-man/690950.md?page=2)