# Was Benjamin Franklin a socialist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339 "2012-01-22T23:23:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![IntelliQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e99b99/32.png) [@IntelliQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IntelliQ)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/1 "2012-01-22T23:23:38Z")
I submit he was not, but people like to throw out a cherry picked quote to argue that he was a socialist: _“All the property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it.” –Benjamin Franklin_ Taking Ben’s collective quotes ([examples](http://jpetrie.myweb.uga.edu/poor_richard.html)) into consideration, wouldn’t it be really stretching things beyond reason to make claims he was for a big welfare state type of government? Doesnt the quote above reflect his newly forming ideas on community spirit more than anything else? ---
**Author:** ![IntelliQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e99b99/32.png) [@IntelliQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IntelliQ)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/2 "2012-01-22T23:31:06Z")
I missed the edit window, a better reference of relevant [quotations](http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/quotes/govt.html) are here. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/3 "2012-01-22T23:38:29Z")
The quote “When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic” is [probably made up.](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Benjamin_Franklin#Possible_quote.3F) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/4 "2012-01-22T23:59:17Z")
Franklin didn’t mistrust government’s right to collect taxes from the people, under punishment by law: > [@](#): > > “The Remissness of our People in Paying Taxes is highly blameable; the Unwillingness to pay them is still more so. I see, in some Resolutions of Town Meetings, a Remonstrance against giving Congress a Power to take, as they call it, the People’s Money out of their Pockets, tho’ only to pay the Interest and Principal of Debts duly contracted. They seem to mistake the Point. Money, justly due from the People, is their Creditors’ Money, and no longer the Money of the People, who, if they withold it, should be compell’d to pay by some Law.” > **[Property: Benjamin Franklin to Robert Morris](http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch16s12.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/5 "2012-01-23T00:11:31Z")
Are we really supposed to wander through pages of quotes and construct the OP’s argument for him? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/6 "2012-01-23T00:17:01Z")
Socialism having nothing whatsoever to do with welfare or taxes, and to my knowledge Benjamin Franklin having never called for the People’s ownership and cooperative management of the means of production, I don’t think he ever was a socialist, no. Then again, you can’t really blame him, considering the socialist idea dawned around a hundred years after he died. He was ahead of his time, but not that ahead. ---
**Author:** ![IntelliQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e99b99/32.png) [@IntelliQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IntelliQ)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/7 "2012-01-23T00:17:13Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Are we really supposed to wander through pages of quotes and construct the OP’s argument for him? That’s not the intent. Im sure you’re all familiar with many of his quotes I was providing just the quickest reference point while I was constructing the post, because if I dont provide a link the first response is always “please cite”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/8 "2012-01-23T00:23:30Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Are we really supposed to wander through pages of quotes and construct the OP’s argument for him? No. You’re supposed to wander through pages of quotes and construct the OP’s argument for him without knowing if the quotes are presented in context or if they are even real. I’ve never seen anyone call Franklin a socialist before [**Fear Itself** did it here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14695014#post14695014), but it was pretty obvious to me that **Fear Itself** was being sarcastic. **IntelliQ** was making the claim that the Founding Fathers subscribed to the “government is a problem” view held by Republicans since the 1970s, and **Fear Itself** was making an equally ahistoric claim in response. If that quote is an accurate representation of Franklin’s opinions, you could say he probably wasn’t in favor of unfettered capitalism, but it doesn’t say anything about the means of production, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/9 "2012-01-23T00:27:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No. You’re supposed to wander through pages of quotes and construct the OP’s argument for him without knowing if the quotes are presented in context or if they are even real. I’ve never seen anyone call Franklin a socialist before [**Fear Itself** did it here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14695014#post14695014), but it was pretty obvious to me that **Fear Itself** was being sarcastic. **IntelliQ** was making the claim that the Founding Fathers subscribed to the “government is a problem” view held by Republicans since the 1970s, and **Fear Itself** was making an equally ahistoric claim in response. If that quote is an accurate representation of Franklin’s opinions, you could say he probably wasn’t in favor of unfettered capitalism, but it doesn’t say anything about the means of production, for example. Thank you. I find it tiresome to have use the sarcasm smilie every time I employ it as a rhetorical tool. I am heartened to see my efforts do not go unnoticed. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/10 "2012-01-23T00:31:56Z")
Wasn’t he around 100 years before Marx and Engels? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/11 "2012-01-23T00:38:33Z")
Not sure there’s much of a debate here then. But anyhoo, [here’s the quote in more context](http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch16s12.html). Franklin seems to be arguing that “property” is a social construct that a gov’t creates, and as such the gov’t can swap around property rights as it sees fit for the public good (like say, by taxing people, or utilizing Eminent Domain). Sounds about right to me, though I have an amusing picture in my mind of Ron Paul’s head exploding if he ever read that particular letter. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/12 "2012-01-23T01:07:57Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Socialism having nothing whatsoever to do with welfare or taxes, and to my knowledge Benjamin Franklin having never called for the People’s ownership and cooperative management of the means of production, I don’t think he ever was a socialist, no. Well, that depends on what definition of “socialist” you are using. If you are using the American right wing definition of socialism then yes he probably _was_ a socialist, since _that_ definition essentially boils down to “anyone who isn’t a laissez-faire corporatist or an outright anarcho-capitalist”. It’s pretty hard _not_ to be a “socialist” by their standards. ---
**Author:** ![IntelliQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e99b99/32.png) [@IntelliQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IntelliQ)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/13 "2012-01-23T01:40:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No. You’re supposed to wander through pages of quotes and construct the OP’s argument for him without knowing if the quotes are presented in context or if they are even real. I’ve never seen anyone call Franklin a socialist before [**Fear Itself** did it here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14695014#post14695014), but it was pretty obvious to me that **Fear Itself** was being sarcastic. **IntelliQ** was making the claim that the Founding Fathers subscribed to the “government is a problem” view held by Republicans since the 1970s, and **Fear Itself** was making an equally ahistoric claim in response. If that quote is an accurate representation of Franklin’s opinions, you could say he probably wasn’t in favor of unfettered capitalism, but it doesn’t say anything about the means of production, for example. I constructed a very simple question and also stated my position. There shouldn’t be any misinterpretation or head scratching. “Unfettered capitalism” is the other extreme and don’t believe that was their intent either. I try to imagine what they would think if they could see the level of reliance on government today. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/14 "2012-01-23T01:42:18Z")
Before we can begin to answer this question, I’d need to know where the OP thinks Franklin fits in on a political spectrum with, say, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, and John Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/15 "2012-01-23T01:51:13Z")
Franklin owned other human beings up until 1784. So yeah, not exactly an equality of outcomes person. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/16 "2012-01-23T01:59:19Z")
> [@IntelliQ](#): > > I constructed a very simple question and also stated my position. There shouldn’t be any misinterpretation or head scratching. Except I never argued he was a socialist. You pointed to an entire website as a cite that the Founding Fathers mistrusted government. I found a quote that contradicted that, and made a sarcastic comment that you must have intended to argue that Franklin was a socialist, because that quote implies the kind of government control of individual property that many people associate with socialism. **Marley23** got it; but it went over your head. I don’t feel I am responsible for holding your hand every time you miss the point. Or maybe you did it deliberately, so as not to address the problem you created by citing an entire website of quotations, I don’t know. But you are proceeding from a misconception. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/17 "2012-01-23T02:10:49Z")
> [@IntelliQ](#): > > “Unfettered capitalism” is the other extreme and don’t believe that was their intent either. I try to imagine what they would think if they could see the level of reliance on government today. I think **Fear’s** original point in the other thread was a good one. The Founding Father’s weren’t a hive-mind, and had varying views on things. There was no single “way” that they all felt about a given topic. To continue the example of property rights: Madison and Adams had very strong views that property was a natural right and the gov’t needed to make protecting property owners and giving them special privileges a priority. Franklin and Jefferson felt property was a more artificial construct that existed for the public good, and that the gov’t could redistribute it however it felt was in the greater public interest (and in Jefferson’s case, that such redistribution should be done specifically to address inequality). So “how would the Founders feel about X” isn’t really a well formed question, some would feel some way, some would feel another. They weren’t a single hive mind. ---
**Author:** ![Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enter_the_Flagon)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/18 "2012-01-23T02:15:17Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > Franklin owned other human beings up until 1784. So yeah, not exactly an equality of outcomes person. And after 1784? [http://www.pbs.org/benfranklin/l3\_citizen\_abolitionist.html](http://www.pbs.org/benfranklin/l3_citizen_abolitionist.html) > [@](#): > > The abolitionist movement in colonial America was fairly limited and considered quite radical. By the mid-1770s, a number of abolitionist organizations had begun to form. > > After Franklin returned from France in 1785, he joined and eventually became president of an abolitionist group founded a decade earlier by the Pennsylvania Quakers. The group was called the Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery and the Relief of Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage. Franklin was convinced that not only the slave trade, but slavery itself should be eliminated. He eventually freed his own two slaves. ---
**Author:** ![IntelliQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e99b99/32.png) [@IntelliQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IntelliQ)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/19 "2012-01-23T02:30:51Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Before we can begin to answer this question, I’d need to know where the OP thinks Franklin fits in on a political spectrum with, say, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, and John Kerry. I feel that all the framers had a smaller scope of government in mind. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339/20 "2012-01-23T02:52:24Z")
> [@IntelliQ](#): > > I feel that all the framers had a smaller scope of government in mind. That’s like saying that Henry Ford had a slower scope of automotive speed in mind than NASCAR. You _could not_ have today’s government in the 1780’s — the technical capacity simply did not exist. It does now. So making reference to how big they thought government should be makes very little sense — their options simply were not comparable. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-benjamin-franklin-a-socialist/610339.md?page=2)