# Was Budd Dwyer factually guilty, innocent, or what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 16, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629 "2012-08-16T00:29:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/1 "2012-08-16T00:29:37Z")
What’s the actual reality behind the charges and law that made him kill himself? I have a sense from overseas, unfairly aquired or not, that high profile American trials are jokes. Therefore I can see him either being not guilty of everything (or only guilty of some super duper minor stuff that required sod all punishment) or indeed him being some massive state criminal who eventually would have faced life or even death. I’ve read the Wikipedia article. Please answer with stuff you know not stuff you’ve googled. I will apprecaite it!` ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/2 "2012-08-16T00:48:10Z")
That was 25 years ago. I barely remember it from the time. He was convicted of a real crime. The [wiki article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Budd_Dwyer) doesn’t provide a lot of information about the evidence. The only thing of note is that the government relied on testimony of other defendants, and one of them claimed he gave false testimony in 2010. But this was not a high profile crime. I doubt most Americans knew anything about it until the news of the suicide. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/3 "2012-08-16T00:54:00Z")
Never heard of Bud Dwyer. What high profile American trial of the last 50 years has been a joke in which the defendant was not guilty of everything or only of some super duper minor stuff? (Conviction must have been upheld on appeal) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/4 "2012-08-16T01:00:42Z")
Outside of those who followed Pennsylvania state level politics, it was not a high profile case. Certainly not on a national level. His suicide made him famous. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/5 "2012-08-16T01:17:34Z")
I’ve never heard of the guy. Most high profile cases are heard by judges and tried by lawyers who are talented and professional, and who do their best to perform their jobs well. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/6 "2012-08-16T01:21:58Z")
Isn’t there some rule in America about adult men who are named ‘Bud(d)’? ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/7 "2012-08-16T14:16:29Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Was Budd Dwyer factually guilty, innocent, or what? > > I’ve read the Wikipedia article. Please answer with stuff you know not stuff you’ve googled. I will apprecaite it!` Given that constraint, I’m not sure how anyone can answer. The facts are all out there, and as with many cases, different people can examine the same information and reach a different conclusion. There’s some good info in [another thread on the topic](Was Budd Dwyer factually guilty, innocent, or what?) a few years ago. The consensus opinion seems to be that Dwyer was guilty. One of his co-defendants testified against him, and Bob Asher, the state party chairman convicted in the case, later acknowledged the bribery scheme. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/8 "2012-08-16T15:33:38Z")
> [@anson2995](#): > > …There’s some good info in [another thread on the topic](Was Budd Dwyer factually guilty, innocent, or what?) a few years ago… Your URL is simply the title of this thread. Are either of these what you meant to post? > **[R. Budd Dwyer Suicide](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=452745)** > > Yesterday was the 21 year anniversary. 22 Jan 1987 The State Treasurer of Pennsylvania, R. Budd Dwyer, proclaims his innocence to fraud charges at a crowded press conference and then pulls a gun out of an envelope and blows his brains out. I... > **[Is there any evidence that R. budd dwyer was really innocent](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=236188)** > > It is the anniversary of when Pennsylvania state treasurer R. Budd Dwyer committed suicide on live television after being sentenced to 55 years in prison. Is there any evidence to suggest he was innocent? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/9 "2012-08-16T17:13:27Z")
It was not a high profile trial. It was a run of the mill trial that was only of interest within the state. It became news when he killed himself. I remember watching the news report when it happened. They showed the video right up until he shot himself, but kept the audio running. Had he not shot himself, no one who was not realated to Dwyer would still remember the trial. ---
**Author:** ![baka420](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@baka420](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baka420)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/10 "2012-08-16T17:41:18Z")
I remember seeing that video on the internet when I was younger, it shocked the hell outta me. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/11 "2012-08-16T18:03:38Z")
I’m not sure what the OP hopes to uncover. He was convicted, which is a pretty good definition of ‘factually guilty.’ I don’t know of any exonerating evidence, and nobody else is offering any. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/12 "2012-08-16T18:07:46Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > It was not a high profile trial. It was a run of the mill trial that was only of interest within the state. It became news when he killed himself. I remember watching the news report when it happened. They showed the video right up until he shot himself, but kept the audio running. Had he not shot himself, no one who was not realated to Dwyer would still remember the trial. Well, it was somewhat high profile. It was pretty much just a garden variety kickback scheme - yet another case of a politician getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The sort of thing you will always have a certain amount of. It was bigger news because it was the State Treasurer of one of the larger states. That puts it just a bit below the more recent stories concerning Rod Blagojevich, who was a governor caught influence peddling. The distinction to be made is that it would have sunk out of sight in a year or two if hadn’t shot himself in front of the press. I don’t think you can make much of a case for him not being guilty. BTW, I’d heard of the guy many years before the news story. Earlier in his career, he was a state legislator. He represented the part of PA I grew up in. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/13 "2012-08-16T18:13:53Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Your URL is simply the title of this thread. Are either of these what you meant to post? > > [R. Budd Dwyer Suicide - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=452745) > [Is there any evidence that R. budd dwyer was really innocent - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=236188) Yes, the first one. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/14 "2012-08-16T18:19:07Z")
Filter’s song “Hey Man Nice Shot” is about his suicide. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/15 "2012-08-16T18:30:27Z")
> [@baka420](#): > > I remember seeing that video on the internet when I was younger, it shocked the hell outta me. The video of his suicide is what really propelled the interest. Its out there in unedited form. Its vicariously really shocking, scary and disgusting. Personally I find his calm demeanor describing what he is about to do, and the calls of “Bud, no!” from those assembled to be just as chilling as his actual death. Man the blood comes pouring out of his nose. I had to almost laugh, though, at the guy screaming “call an ambulance” immediately afterwards as if there was any hope of saving the guy. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/16 "2012-08-16T18:31:49Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > Well, it was somewhat high profile. It was pretty much just a garden variety kickback scheme - yet another case of a politician getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The sort of thing you will always have a certain amount of. It was bigger news because it was the State Treasurer of one of the larger states. That puts it just a bit below the more recent stories concerning Rod Blagojevich, who was a governor caught influence peddling. Blago was _waaaay_ more high profile than Budd Dwyer, due to the whole “let’s sell Obama’s Senate seat” thing. That was a national media frenzy. Dwyer was a high-profile case in PA and the surrounding states, but of little importance on the national level, until he pulled his little stunt. Similarly, nobody outside of the Illinois area had heard much of Blagojevich before the Obama scandal, even though his name was already mud due to his association with Tony Rezko and other controversies. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/17 "2012-08-16T19:10:13Z")
I watch and read lots of news and the guy never showed on my radar until he killed himself on TV, and he’s not been back on it since – until this thread. In fact, I thought from the context of the first few posts that he had shot himself just in the last few days. Nothing about the trial was national news. Even his death was more about “some guy who shot himself”, not that BUDD DWYER shot himself. The first time I read the name in this post I thought he was a football coach. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/18 "2012-08-17T00:39:16Z")
Not to make light of an overall tragic event, but I read that by killing himself he kind of got the last laugh. If he had been convicted he’d have lost his govt pension and maybe gone to jail. But because their state’s govt’s life insurance had no ‘doesn’t-pay-on-suicide’ clause his wife & family received a large payout. Some believe he knew this and it was part of his motivation. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/19 "2012-08-17T07:04:03Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Not to make light of an overall tragic event, but I read that by killing himself he kind of got the last laugh. If he had been convicted he’d have lost his govt pension and maybe gone to jail. But because their state’s govt’s life insurance had no ‘doesn’t-pay-on-suicide’ clause his wife & family received a large payout. Some believe he knew this and it was part of his motivation. Presumably too his wife also got a widow pension - or was that rescinded due to conviction, since he died between conviction and sentencing? ---
**Author:** ![Fir\_na\_tine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fir\_na\_tine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fir_na_tine)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629/20 "2012-08-17T14:02:54Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Presumably too his wife also got a widow pension - or was that rescinded due to conviction, since he died between conviction and sentencing? FWIW, in most state and Federal courts, in you die before you are sentenced the conviction is null and void. And if you are not convicted (because you’re dead) then you are not guilty. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-budd-dwyer-factually-guilty-innocent-or-what/631629.md?page=2)